A possible bridge Kiesel can use?

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Dometalican
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A possible bridge Kiesel can use?

Postby Dometalican » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:45 pm

http://www.technologyformusicians.com/n ... p?lingua=2

http://www.technologyformusicians.com/h ... p?lingua=2

It's a heck of a way to offer tremolos in multi-scale guitars. What do you guys think?
Rig goals:
1 A6C
2 AC375 (or AC475; 7-string preferred)
3 Carvin V3412
4 X64
5 Carvin BX1600
6 DC700C (27" scale)
7 Extended scale or Multiscale 6-string Bass
8 AM8/KVM8
9 K6CX/SCB6CX/DC6CX (26.5"/27" scale)
For fun:
10. CT73C
11. V59K/LB75

Pickup Post that may help you!

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spudmunkey
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Re: A possible bridge Kiesel can use?

Postby spudmunkey » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:05 pm

Thanks to its flexibility is ideal for use in instruments with funboard keyboards multiscale.


Well...I can't deny that. :lol:

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UnexplodedCow
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Re: A possible bridge Kiesel can use?

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:07 pm

A fulcrum style vibrato is going to have extreme changes in action for the longer scales on any multiscale guitar.

The closer the saddle break angle is to the fulcrum, the less change in action.

Compare a Floyd's action change when raising and lowering to, say, an Ibanez ZR. The ZR's saddles are closer to the pivot point, so less action raising and lowering while dive bombing or pitch raising. This fulcrum issue gets exaggerated on the unit to which you linked.

For a multiscale, a cam style, like a Kahler, will be the best current choice. Strandberg has an interesting design, as well. Anything else is going to buzz out, quickly, on raising the pitch, or the strings will be a mile off the fretboard.
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spudmunkey
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Re: A possible bridge Kiesel can use?

Postby spudmunkey » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:43 pm

i was just watching a Veritasium video on Youtube about flexibility in machines, aka compliant mechanisms. I wonder if the answer to multiscale trems is a bridge that twists rather than a lever/fulcrum action. :think:

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Re: A possible bridge Kiesel can use?

Postby UnexplodedCow » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:02 am

That would most likely be a cam-based design.

The issue with using something compliant would be consistency, and metallurgy involved. It would not be cheap. Also, if the unit twists, it'll twist where more force is applied, and less where less force is applied. Guitar strings are not consistently tensioned, even if tuned to standard, so having something compliant would require using a torsion bar that has to be spec'd exactly to the string tension, and if that changes, so does the bar itself. That would be expensive, either for initial buy-in, or over time.

Could a torsion bar replace a typical coil spring? You bet. Why hasn't that been done? Because nobody's come forward with that design, as older designs are still firmly entrenched. How many people argue over a 6 screw Strat unit compared to a two post, let alone a Floyd? Then throw in a Bigsby and the Jazzmaster/Jaguar/Mustang style vibrato, or even the (*gag*) Maestro.

They are all compromises. The issue with not using a fulcrum becomes linear string movement, and the winds will either wear the saddle, or will create friction (a bind point), or they could break. So we have rocking bridges, and those are panned for killing sustain, unreliable tuning, and being finicky (so let's toss out the Bigsby and JM/Jag/Musty, and Maestro designs).

The problem with using a fulcrum is intonation and action change due to the strings moving vertically at one anchor point, in opposition to the saddle's movement. The other issue is the pivot point. Once those wear, problems occur. This can affect Fender's JM/Jag/Musty design, as it also uses a knife edge, but uses a MUCH larger one. Instead of, say, 10mm total contact area, it uses 50 or 60mm of contact, so wear is reduced. A final issue of fulcrum design comes down to the mounting screws, or posts. They're dealing with angle changes, which can cause the post hole to loosen over time (not universally, and that depends on pilot hole size as well as wood type and integrity). Sometimes a two-point design will crack the post hole.

What design avoids, literally, all of these problems with a better design? Probably the Kahler. Its issue would be the roller saddles. They bind over time, and are in a bad location. Solution? Use modern, sealed, miniature bearings in races with a groove in the center. Have ceramic bearings inside the race. Needle is preferable to ball due to loads, but a good ceramic ball bearing should hold up. That will solve most of the issues with binding, wear, and dirt buildup. The rest of the system, while using coil springs, is still cam-based. The only way to improve that would be to compact it and use a torsion spring that could sit inside the cam itself. Use bearings on the pivots as well, and that pretty much compacts and solves the mechanical issue with a Kahler.

Now...to argue the sustain part; that's anyone's guess, but I can imagine that it wouldn't be any worse than what my Jaguar uses....or a Bigsby on a floating bridge.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

Guitar theorem: G=X+1 where G= guitars one needs, and X = guitars one has.

Do or do not; there is no understand.


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