New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby ioneater » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:58 pm

HarlowTheFish wrote:Well hopefully this one's not gonna have horrible neck dive like every other V I've ever played.


Hmmm, none of the 4 UltraV's I've owned have exhibited neck dive. They are deceivingly comfortable to play. Both the X's I just sold did have some dive to them.

I don't care for this baby V much at all going by the couch picture, at least. Just doesn't look right. Wonder how it feels, though.....

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby amispy » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:03 am

helldorado wrote:I don't want a real guitar that's the almost the size of the toy guitar from Guitar Hero.


+1 Glad I'm not the only one that thinks most of the headless models look like toys.
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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby Koshchei » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:02 am

Jeff should be careful - Gibson pioneered the headless guitar:

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby Koshchei » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:30 am

helldorado wrote:So people want to be mad that Gibson is making the effort. Anybody notice how all the designs Jeff has released are noted with a patent number or patent pending? Like Kiesel wouldn't go after somebody who uses one of their patented designs? Patents and trademarks only work if you enforce them, and it's on the owner to do so. Not somebody else.


It's nice to have an opinion, but it's nicer to have an opinion with some basis in fact. Gibson effectively gave up their exclusive access to those shapes by failing to protect them over the 40 or so years that other companies have been making them. At this point, they're generic. See last year's EU Flying V case or the 2005 PRS single-cut case.

Gibson is trying to extort smaller builders into licensing something they no longer own. While this is unethical, what makes it really nasty is that they're going after smaller builders who can't afford a lengthy legal battle. In a nutshell, this could be interpreted as a scorched-earth strategy to exert control over the shrinking guitar market, where by burning everyone who won't knuckle over out of cash with protracted vexatious litigation, they're hoping to be the last man standing.

The counter-point to this is Rickenbacker, who have consistently and aggressively gone after anybody who's made anything superficially resembling one of their instruments. While people tend to snark on the Hall family for this (and other things), they're doing it properly. The Kiesels seem to be doing it properly as well.

edit: Nail in coffin: You can't buy Kiesel guitars in a retail store, and similarly, you can't order a Gibson from Kiesel. This difference alone makes it impossible to confuse the two, ignoring for the moment that they look nothing alike anyway.

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby helldorado » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:36 am

Koshchei wrote:
helldorado wrote:So people want to be mad that Gibson is making the effort. Anybody notice how all the designs Jeff has released are noted with a patent number or patent pending? Like Kiesel wouldn't go after somebody who uses one of their patented designs? Patents and trademarks only work if you enforce them, and it's on the owner to do so. Not somebody else.


It's nice to have an opinion, but it's nicer to have an opinion with some basis in fact. Gibson effectively gave up their exclusive access to those shapes by failing to protect them over the 40 or so years that other companies have been making them. At this point, they're generic. See last year's EU Flying V case or the 2005 PRS single-cut case.

Gibson is trying to extort smaller builders into licensing something they no longer own. While this is unethical, what makes it really nasty is that they're going after smaller builders who can't afford a lengthy legal battle. In a nutshell, this could be interpreted as a scorched-earth strategy to exert control over the shrinking guitar market, where by burning everyone who won't knuckle over out of cash with protracted vexatious litigation, they're hoping to be the last man standing.

The counter-point to this is Rickenbacker, who have consistently and aggressively gone after anybody who's made anything superficially resembling one of their instruments. While people tend to snark on the Hall family for this (and other things), they're doing it properly. The Kiesels seem to be doing it properly as well.

edit: Nail in coffin: You can't buy Kiesel guitars in a retail store, and similarly, you can't order a Gibson from Kiesel. This difference alone makes it impossible to confuse the two, ignoring for the moment that they look nothing alike anyway.


It's also nice when people read the full thread instead of responding early to one statement. You would've seen where I made many of the same points you did. ;-)

My whole thing is that unless someone is looking for a reason to get their jimmies rustled, the whole thing is much Ado about nothing and the group response is comedic overreaction. Maybe it's that more people should've had this reaction to the Armadillo lawsuit because the outcome affects everybody, but not enough people cared because we're not Dean fanboys? Until Gibson gets their active trademarks thrown out in court, they're going to keep doing this. It's not the first time and it won't be the last.

Fender lost their design protections because it was a combined industry effort to fight them in court. Maybe more companies should be joining Dean in their countersuit?

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby Naked Ape » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:57 pm

LMAO!
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For some on this Forum, Mentioning 'Gibson' is equivalent to wearing a Red Hat. :lol:

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby ElfDude » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:55 am

Ain't nuthin' wrong with red hats, partner!

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby spudmunkey » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:06 am

I have to admit, it does look like it would be a great "pick up and noodle" guitar, seeing how planted it sits in one's lap.

On the other hand, I'm pushin' 20 stone, so it would look like a shrimp fork hanging on me. :lol: That, and I've got no room in my budget for such a high-quality "noodle" guitar. :lol:

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby customaxe » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:42 am

Toptube wrote:My two cents on this is that Gibson is going after any shape which is similar. Not exact. And that is stupid.

If companies are doing near exact copies of shapes, that's also stupid. But...its usually not the case nowadays.

As mentioned, its probably a scare tactic to try and get brands to pay Gibson to license their shapes.

What Gibson really should be doing, is releasing fresh versions of their guitars, so that people will buy more. And/or want to buy them over another brand's take on the general idea.


Yep, the bottom line on this whole mess is that if Gibson sunk even HALF of the money they spend on all these frivolous lawsuits into trying to build great guitars, they wouldn't have to bully other companies for extra scratch to pad their pockets. I understand protecting your company when someone blatantly tries to rip you off or misrepresent their product as yours (see: Chibsons), but this has all gone WELL beyond that and into the realm of the ridiculous.

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby helldorado » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:19 pm

spudmunkey wrote:I have to admit, it does look like it would be a great "pick up and noodle" guitar, seeing how planted it sits in one's lap.

That's the only real attraction to the Type-X for me. The V220 is supremely comfortable to play in multiple positions. The lower horn positions itself really nicely in a number of ways, standing or sitting.

spudmunkey wrote:On the other hand, I'm pushin' 20 stone, so it would look like a shrimp fork hanging on me. :lol: That, and I've got no room in my budget for such a high-quality "noodle" guitar. :lol:

Same... headless doesn't look right on my several firkin frame :lol:

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby Casual Madman » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:15 pm

spudmunkey wrote:I have to admit, it does look like it would be a great "pick up and noodle" guitar, seeing how planted it sits in one's lap.

On the other hand, I'm pushin' 20 stone, so it would look like a shrimp fork hanging on me.


Give it all you've got, weighin' in at 19 stone. You're a whole lotta spudmunkey.

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby amon » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:48 pm

All these new models, being just slight variations of each other, puts the "too many programs" excuse to the lie.

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby HarlowTheFish » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:56 pm

amon wrote:All these new models, being just slight variations of each other, puts the "too many programs" excuse to the lie.

Depends on how they make the new models - if the old ones were one program per configuration and the new ones are more modular, then they could conceivably have many more models with a lot less programs.

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby Quivering Wrist » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:08 pm

amon wrote:All these new models, being just slight variations of each other, puts the "too many programs" excuse to the lie.


There is never too many programs in a computer. I just think Jeff doesn't want the company associated with a loser guitar that don't sell.

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby helldorado » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:59 am

HarlowTheFish wrote:
amon wrote:All these new models, being just slight variations of each other, puts the "too many programs" excuse to the lie.

Depends on how they make the new models - if the old ones were one program per configuration and the new ones are more modular, then they could conceivably have many more models with a lot less programs.


At the very least, the bolt-on models definitely benefit from this. I'm pretty sure all the bolt-on headless models use the exact same necks.

The older neck-thru builds, definitely don't seem to be designed in this way. I've been hoping for some time they could take a modular approach to design and building, so when one new feature is introduce, it's more easily applied to the existing models. Right now, they seem to leave the existing models behind, while newer models get more features and options.

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby micmil » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:31 pm

Quivering Wrist wrote:
amon wrote:All these new models, being just slight variations of each other, puts the "too many programs" excuse to the lie.


There is never too many programs in a computer. I just think Jeff doesn't want the company associated with a loser guitar that don't sell.


You both need to pull your heads out, or learn a little more before speaking again on the subject.

There absolutely IS such a thing as too many programs in a CNC machine. There is a limited amount of memory available and they likely cannot store every program they need to run on a regular basis. Changing stuff in and out does take time and I don't know of anyone that will change a program and straight run it without a simulation first to verify things are working properly. This also takes time. There are a limited number of tools that can be accommodated in a machine. If a given model requires specific tools that are used less than others, they will need to be changed out. This takes even more time.

Note how many times I said time. There's a reason.

The ideal would be to have a small enough number of programs to fit in the machine's memory and have all of these programs utilizing the same tools. That is undoubtedly what is being worked towards. That doesn't make the statement that there are too many programs a "lie" as is idiotically stated here. That makes it THE EXACT THING THEY ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH.

It's like the high command during WWI that saw injuries skyrocket after helmets were introduced and yelled "SEE, WE TOLD YOU THEY WERE BAD!" while everyone that didn't have their head embedded looked around and went "Yeah... and DEATHS have plummeted."

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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby ioneater » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:26 am


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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby Jack'O'Licious » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:22 am

That would be perfect response in such a chill forum as this is :roll: I don't know what it is about being anonymous on the internet that brings out the real douche in a person :lol:
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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby GuitFiddle » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:16 am

Jack'O'Licious wrote:That would be perfect response in such a chill forum as this is :roll: I don't know what it is about being anonymous on the internet that brings out the real douche in a person :lol:


It's think it's just a natural re-balancing of this corner of the universe. This forum has been the most even-tempered, friendly, helpful, and respectable message board in the history of the world for a very long time now. It was inevitable that we'd get salted eventually, some furious elitist spittle yang to our collective calm camaraderie ying, if you will.
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Re: New Kiesel? "Type-V" Guitar

Postby amon » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:44 pm

micmil wrote:You both need to pull your heads out, or learn a little more before speaking again on the subject.

I used program for CNC manufacturing equipment for a living, making diesel engine parts and sheet metal parts (guitar bodies and necks are simple by comparison, and wood is a much easier medium to mill than metal). When the CAD software would spit out some weirdness, I would often have to go in and rewrite line-by-line. So it's you who can stop talking now.


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