Vader guitar... pros and cons.

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Koshchei
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:26 am

gibvel wrote:
GuitFiddle wrote:Even crusty, cynical old me has been tempted by a Vader at times. Not enough to pull the trigger though.


Believe me, I know what you mean. I think the headless is kinda cool though. Just don't know if I could get used to it? :roll:


Only one way to find out...

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Mr Seafoam
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Mr Seafoam » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:51 am

Dude, don't even waste time questioning whether or not you should get a Vader. These guitars are phenomenal, just do it! I never owned a headless and just recently got my V6X. It immediately became my favorite guitar and I have some real doozies over here. I love this thing so much I ordered a 2nd one so I could try a few different options and have two amazing guitars.

There are no cons to owning a Vader. The only one I can think of is that your other guitars may get a layer of dust on them LOL

I can guarantee you my Vader collection will grow in the future. :stir:

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:55 am

^ He speaks the truth.

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texastoast
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby texastoast » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:48 pm

I hate to admit it but I am with the two gentleman above. I will get more vaders.

As far as tension, I have not really wrapped my head around it yet. I am going to buy a six trem for sure. I am thinking a six multi but I am not feeling the benefit yet. I do prefer playing chords on a muti. The sound is different. Better or not I do not know. It growls more than crunches. I can not put it in more bass less mids kinda speak. I have to figure it all out and do more a/b testing. So much different about it I do not know what effects what. (headless, alder, lithium and so on)

My seven 25 scale feels and sounds much different. I cant say what feels better. I think the multi thing and tension really comes in when you down tune. So I have been told.

The volume knobs are right were your hand ends up if you were to just relax and let you arms hang down. The most impressive thing about the vader and the multi scale is the ergonomics.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby arahobob » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:10 pm

Mr Seafoam wrote:Dude, don't even waste time questioning whether or not you should get a Vader. These guitars are phenomenal, just do it! I never owned a headless and just recently got my V6X. It immediately became my favorite guitar and I have some real doozies over here. I love this thing so much I ordered a 2nd one so I could try a few different options and have two amazing guitars.

There are no cons to owning a Vader. The only one I can think of is that your other guitars may get a layer of dust on them LOL

I can guarantee you my Vader collection will grow in the future. :stir:


The only con I have with the V6X is the trem.
My initial feelings -

The set screw / bar tension design needs to be improved.
The bar angle is too severe (for me / I could bend it if I wanted to)
Feel of the bar is too loose. The slightest touch alters the pitch. Pulling the bar into positon, touching a tuner, etc and it's out.
Perhaps another spring? Stiffer springs?

I suspect the design will improve over time just like with the original Vader.
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Mr Seafoam
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Mr Seafoam » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:40 pm

Arahobob - I think your peeves are more personal preferences than design flaws. No disrespect intended whatsoever!

In my personal experience the set screw design is perfectly normal. Is it ideal? Maybe...maybe not... but still normal.

The angle of the bar is great for me, I think that's purely personal preference. Like you indicated, it can be changed if you really hate it.

As for the bridge being sensitive, I think you just have to get used to it and "learn" the instrument. Every bridge feels a little different. If it's a guitar you play a lot, you learn how best to attack it and it becomes second nature. I do agree that it's sensitive but I think that's part of its charm. That's why it does great warbles, easy pitch bends, etc. Once the guitar feels like home to you, the bridge will feel normal and then OTHER guitars' bridges will feel a little strange. It's all what you're used to.

I know everyone is different and there is no one perfect guitar or bridge, but for me there's not much I would change on my Vader. And the things I WOULD change (neck wood, chambering, etc. - those are on upcoming V6X #2! :-)

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby arahobob » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:00 am

Mr Seafoam wrote:Arahobob - I think your peeves are more personal preferences than design flaws. No disrespect intended whatsoever!

In my personal experience the set screw design is perfectly normal. Is it ideal? Maybe...maybe not... but still normal.

The angle of the bar is great for me, I think that's purely personal preference. Like you indicated, it can be changed if you really hate it.

As for the bridge being sensitive, I think you just have to get used to it and "learn" the instrument. Every bridge feels a little different. If it's a guitar you play a lot, you learn how best to attack it and it becomes second nature. I do agree that it's sensitive but I think that's part of its charm. That's why it does great warbles, easy pitch bends, etc. Once the guitar feels like home to you, the bridge will feel normal and then OTHER guitars' bridges will feel a little strange. It's all what you're used to.

I know everyone is different and there is no one perfect guitar or bridge, but for me there's not much I would change on my Vader. And the things I WOULD change (neck wood, chambering, etc. - those are on upcoming V6X #2! :-)


You are absolutely correct! No worries.
I'm just sharing my personal initial experiences. My gut reactions after a week.
That's why I listed fixes where possible - I've bent many a bar to my personal favorite angles. Nbd
I'm sure a spring adjustment could be made to my liking. Others have made similar comments about the sensitivity while tuning.

The metal on metal set screw design is not the best IMHO.
I don't want to adjust it each time I need to use the guitar.
I don't want it to loosen while playing or be too tight to remove.
I don't want to see metal shavings come out when I remove the bar.
Maybe it's just MY unit acting up, but that's what's happening.

I'm glad you and others are digging it. It's still a Vader (which is an amazing guitar)
I feel it's important to share the bad with the good.
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby GuitFiddle » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:06 am

Seems to me that most quirks/reservations people have about the Vader could be avoided by getting the hard tail. What can I say, this is an evolution and will take a while to work out all the bugs.
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby freakofnature » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:23 am

arahobob seeing your post here reminded me that I never responded about checking my Trem Arm out from that other thread. I can tell you I do NOT suffer the same problem on either of mine. My bar pops in and out without issue and has remained stiff enough to stay in place where I want it.

I agree with your opinions on all fronts though where the new Trem is concerned:

- Even though I don't suffer the issue currently with my arms, I have no doubt that it will eventually be the case. The set screw needs some sort of bushing on the end so it's not metal on metal. It's just common sense imo.

- Along the lines of the above mentioned issue, I feel the same way about the rotating metal on steel string where the locking screw is. That's poor design as well and the screws are made of to soft of a metal allowing them to grove easily from pressing against the strings. These grooves end up causing string breakage issues for future string replacements because now you have rotating grooves as you screw the screw in to lock the string down.

- I agree with the String Bar bend as well. It needs to be bent more and although the bend itself would be personal preference as the previous post mentions, the non-aggressive bend of the bar allows for TO MUCH of a dive. If you dive the bar all the way close to the body of the guitar, you cause the knife adge of the trem to pop out of the groove a bit. You can FEEL it and it's disconcerting a bit in the middle of playing a solo. If it were bent more along the lines of a Floyd bar, I'm betting this would be a non-issue. Now that I have 2 V6X's I can verify that this IS an issue and not just a fluke with my first one.

- I hate to say this one because I'm still tweaking and still stretching new strings, etc. but I don't THINK these trems are going to be as rock solid stable as my Original Floyds are. I find myself having to ever so slightly adjust my tuning after a handful of songs played to where on my JB24 and CT24 even with new strings, I only have to slightly adjust tuning after the guitar has been sitting for a day or so. Now, this hipshot trem is still new to me so I'm learning all the ins and outs but let me tell you, I've been working with floyds for 20+ years and I know them in and out and I feel like I've got a good enough grasp on floating trems to be able to accurately give my opinion on this matter.

Hope I'm not coming off to negative on these instruments. Everyone that knows me here is aware that I'm a HUGE Kiesel fan and up to this point I've had nothing but 100% positive feedback for the company and it's overall direction. But that 100% positive feedback has been based on honesty as are these comments so take it for what it's worth and not as me coming in here to bash Kiesel. Most of these issues are EZ fixes! My only concern is the slightly less stable issue. I will probably try adding another spring eventually if it doesn't sort itself out and see if that helps.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby GuitFiddle » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:35 am

Well maybe there will be someone, either an individual or a business (like Frets on the Net) will come up with a solution for this. As I mentioned in another thread, Jeff is more of a visionary and doesn't sweat details like this (not a knock, just a fact), so I wouldn't hold my breath on a solution from Kiesel.
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby freakofnature » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:39 am

GuitFiddle wrote:Well maybe there will be someone, either an individual or a business (like Frets on the Net) will come up with a solution for this. As I mentioned in another thread, Jeff is more of a visionary and doesn't sweat details like this (not a knock, just a fact), so I wouldn't hold my breath on a solution from Kiesel.


Although I DO agree that Jeff tends to maybe push things out before they've been fully vetted out and all the kinks worked out, I disagree that they don't fix their mistakes. Off the tops of my head, there were 3 issues I personally complained about when the Hipshot bridges started coming out (Sharp edge on the top of the bridge and the saddle issues), and the Zero fret issue where groves would form causing "Pings" WERE eventually all resolved and not only that, they offered FREE fixes to those suffering from the issues if I remember correctly.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby GuitFiddle » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:44 am

I have to say that the zero fret issue acknowledgement and resolution was probably the best-handled customer service event I've seen out of the company. Kudos to them for that.
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:32 am

The saddle response was good too.

I'm probably the only naysayer here, but I still don't get the zero fret problem; it sorts itself out as the fret wears down a little under the constant compression of the strings. Once the zero fret develops slight grooves, the string stops pinging because you effectively have a work-hardened metal nut.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby TylerE » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:50 pm

Disclaimer: I don't own nor have I played a Vader, but I do own a "similar" multi-scale 8 string from a company I won't name. I *do* own a multi-scale Aries that I couldn't be happier with.

Three cons that I haven't seen anyone mention that I think are worth pointing out...

1) Tuning is harder. It just it. The knobs are don't give a ton of leverage due the diameter, and the placement is pretty cramped too. This is compounded by having to pick the note and tune with the same hand. It's not a _huge_ deal, but it is a thing. Especially if you frequently change tuning (e.g. between E std and something like Open G) it's gonna annoy.

2) Need an allen wrench to change strings. You're used to this if you deal with Floyds, but again, something to be aware of.

3) The headless waggle. This is something you may or may not notice. The headstock + tuner weight way out there on the end of the neck help stabalize the guitar. If you're playing hard you may notice the nut end of the neck being a little squirelly because there isn't the weight out there.

None of this is to dissuade you, but since I hadn't seen it mentioned I thought I'd counter the love fest going on in thread.
All of this said, my next guitar will probably be a Holdsworth.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby TylerE » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:53 pm

texastoast wrote: I am thinking a six multi but I am not feeling the benefit yet.


Dooo ett. I have an AM6 and an 8 string multiscale (non-Kiesel). I think multiscale is practically _required_ on an 8 to get acceptable tension and intonation down low, but even on a 6 the benefits are not subtle. Worth it to me just for having less/no pain in my fretting wrist.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby gibvel » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:08 am

TylerE wrote:Disclaimer: I don't own nor have I played a Vader, but I do own a "similar" multi-scale 8 string from a company I won't name. I *do* own a multi-scale Aries that I couldn't be happier with.

Three cons that I haven't seen anyone mention that I think are worth pointing out...

1) Tuning is harder. It just it. The knobs are don't give a ton of leverage due the diameter, and the placement is pretty cramped too. This is compounded by having to pick the note and tune with the same hand. It's not a _huge_ deal, but it is a thing. Especially if you frequently change tuning (e.g. between E std and something like Open G) it's gonna annoy.

I also thought about this but you have to do the same thing with a Floyd or any locking trem that tunes at the trem. Of course different if you have a fixed bridge..

2) Need an allen wrench to change strings. You're used to this if you deal with Floyds, but again, something to be aware of.

Seems way faster than a Floyd though AND faster than a fixed bridge regular guitar. Just looks, from what I've seen in videos, that it was done way more quickly.

3) The headless waggle. This is something you may or may not notice. The headstock + tuner weight way out there on the end of the neck help stabalize the guitar. If you're playing hard you may notice the nut end of the neck being a little squirelly because there isn't the weight out there.

Don't know about this. Anyone else have anything to say about this?

None of this is to dissuade you, but since I hadn't seen it mentioned I thought I'd counter the love fest going on in thread.
All of this said, my next guitar will probably be a Holdsworth.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby freakofnature » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:34 am

freakofnature wrote:- I hate to say this one because I'm still tweaking and still stretching new strings, etc. but I don't THINK these trems are going to be as rock solid stable as my Original Floyds are. I find myself having to ever so slightly adjust my tuning after a handful of songs played to where on my JB24 and CT24 even with new strings, I only have to slightly adjust tuning after the guitar has been sitting for a day or so. Now, this hipshot trem is still new to me so I'm learning all the ins and outs but let me tell you, I've been working with floyds for 20+ years and I know them in and out and I feel like I've got a good enough grasp on floating trems to be able to accurately give my opinion on this matter.


Just wanted to point out that over the weekend ! picked up some more Trem Springs and after adding one more (So a total of 4) the trem seems to stay in tune much better. Now very comparable to my Floyds!

gibvel wrote:3) The headless waggle. This is something you may or may not notice. The headstock + tuner weight way out there on the end of the neck help stabalize the guitar. If you're playing hard you may notice the nut end of the neck being a little squirelly because there isn't the weight out there.

Don't know about this. Anyone else have anything to say about this?



Yea, I play pretty darn hard and I've never encountered what he described at all. If anything, the guitar feels easier to control without the headstock. More balanced overall.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby bcrich1975 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:52 am

I have no cons with mine (V6). Absolutely love it. My other guitars have been getting neglected since I've gotten one.
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Jbird » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:03 am

Ron P wrote:One con - you can't use a clip on tuner. :(


Why can't you use one?

I own a USA Steinberger GM4S and clip-on tuners work just fine on the head piece.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Jbird » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:07 am

Koshchei wrote:The saddle response was good too.

I'm probably the only naysayer here, but I still don't get the zero fret problem; it sorts itself out as the fret wears down a little under the constant compression of the strings. Once the zero fret develops slight grooves, the string stops pinging because you effectively have a work-hardened metal nut.


This.

My Steinberger pinged a bit maybe a couple of years after I bought it, but you couldn't hear the pinging coming thru the amplifier so I ignored it. Now, 14 years after buying it (new, musicyo) no pinging at all. Been that way for years, really.


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