Vader guitar... pros and cons.

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gibvel
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby gibvel » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:06 pm

What is the ratio of the tuners on the Vader fixed bridge? Is it the same as the Trem?

For multi-Scale players, is the stretch at the nut larger, smaller or the same as a DC127. In other words, if I wanted to do a bare F2, which I can just get on the DC, would I be able to do that on a multi-scale or would the stretch be just a bit too much?

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arahobob
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby arahobob » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:40 pm

freakofnature wrote:
freakofnature wrote:- I hate to say this one because I'm still tweaking and still stretching new strings, etc. but I don't THINK these trems are going to be as rock solid stable as my Original Floyds are. I find myself having to ever so slightly adjust my tuning after a handful of songs played to where on my JB24 and CT24 even with new strings, I only have to slightly adjust tuning after the guitar has been sitting for a day or so. Now, this hipshot trem is still new to me so I'm learning all the ins and outs but let me tell you, I've been working with floyds for 20+ years and I know them in and out and I feel like I've got a good enough grasp on floating trems to be able to accurately give my opinion on this matter.


Just wanted to point out that over the weekend ! picked up some more Trem Springs and after adding one more (So a total of 4) the trem seems to stay in tune much better. Now very comparable to my Floyds!

gibvel wrote:3) The headless waggle. This is something you may or may not notice. The headstock + tuner weight way out there on the end of the neck help stabalize the guitar. If you're playing hard you may notice the nut end of the neck being a little squirelly because there isn't the weight out there.

Don't know about this. Anyone else have anything to say about this?


Yea, I play pretty darn hard and I've never encountered what he described at all. If anything, the guitar feels easier to control without the headstock. More balanced overall.



I'm glad to hear the spring worked for you. A little stiffer is probably way better.

Headless waggle? Can't say I've ever experienced that either.
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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby ioneater » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:54 pm

It's hard for me to think of any cons. A clip-on tuner works just fine. I lightly pluck the strings with my left hand for tuning same as I do on my Floyd, works great. Generally, the Vaders have less mass than Kiesel's standard guitar offering, I guess that could be a negative for somebody, to me it's a delight to hang on a strap after playing the 9lb Bolt I just sold. These are easy to travel with as well. I often take mine to work because it is so compact I can keep it in the locker.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby texastoast » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:58 am

Head waggle meet Issac Newton. Less mass = more stability.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby spudmunkey » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:49 am

texastoast wrote:Head waggle meet Issac Newton. Less mass = more stability.


Wouldn't the opposite be true, per Newton? More mass = more inertia (which is resistance to acceleration). This is the whole reason baseball players swing with two bats before stepping up to the plate, so that when they put down the bat and halve the mass, the same applied energy causes much more and faster movement. Consider a jet-ski coming to a crossing with an aircraft carrier...which one's gonna have to move out of the way of the other? :mrgreen:

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:14 am

I have no idea what headless waggle is, but I don't think I've ever experienced it. I *do* experience paranoia about accidentally banging headstocks into things when I play a regular guitar now though.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Doctor Turn » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:09 pm

Any of you guys see this koa beast on facebook? Koa top and body:

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Carvin Weaponry:
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1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby spudmunkey » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:29 pm

My favorite type of flamed koa. I'd gladly trade a grade or two of flame to get those ribbons/stripes of caramel and chocolate...but this one's got both.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Jbird » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:54 pm

That koa Vader... :drool:

My ultimate Kiesel build right now would be either a Vader or an HH2, koa neck and body flamed koa top, chambered, flamed maple fret board, EVO med-jumbo frets, 20" radius. Not sure if I'd want the whammy bridge or not. I don't usually use them on the guitars I already own that have whammy bars.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby gibvel » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:52 am

What is the ratio of the tuners on the Vader fixed bridge? Is it the same as the Trem?

For multi-Scale players, is the stretch at the nut larger, smaller or the same as a DC127. In other words, if I wanted to do a bare F2, which I can just get on the DC, would I be able to do that on a multi-scale or would the stretch be just a bit too much?

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby gibvel » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:28 am

2 more question.

First, What are the pickup combinations in the different switch positions. Would these be the same pickup switch combinations on the Aries as well?

Second, I was watching the Gear gods video on the Vadar VM6 page and the guy was saying that "If you're not going to tune down, from standard tuning, then you might as well just get the regular scale vader". He seemed to thing that, in standard tuning, the multi-scale, made the strings feel stiff. I'm sure this may just be a personal preference thing so what do you VM6 owners think of that?

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:45 am

gibvel wrote:What is the ratio of the tuners on the Vader fixed bridge? Is it the same as the Trem?

For multi-Scale players, is the stretch at the nut larger, smaller or the same as a DC127. In other words, if I wanted to do a bare F2, which I can just get on the DC, would I be able to do that on a multi-scale or would the stretch be just a bit too much?


There isn't really any stretch. Kiesel's multiscale fingerboard accommodates where your fingers naturally fall on the fretboard. The only effortful change you need to make when going from simple to multiscale is not straining so hard.

I can't speak to the VM6, but on an 8 string, multiscale is a no-brainer.

Switching: 1 - neck, 2 - neck split, 3 - both inner coils, 4 - bridge split, 5 - bridge. No idea on the Aries, but I'd think so, unless you're H-S-H or another pickup configuration.
Last edited by Koshchei on Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby texastoast » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:20 am

spudmunkey wrote:
texastoast wrote:Head waggle meet Issac Newton. Less mass = more stability.


Wouldn't the opposite be true, per Newton? More mass = more inertia (which is resistance to acceleration). This is the whole reason baseball players swing with two bats before stepping up to the plate, so that when they put down the bat and halve the mass, the same applied energy causes much more and faster movement. Consider a jet-ski coming to a crossing with an aircraft carrier...which one's gonna have to move out of the way of the other? :mrgreen:


Force = velocity times mass. The only thing in this example that has changed is less mass. Also to to be a technical nit picker, the mass is the resistance to acceleration, inertia is the force applied or stored to overcome the resistance.
Straight out of my text book, "The more weight/mass an object has, the more inertia it has. If inertia increases, then the object will require more force to move (accelerate) in any direction. Because the mass increases the object's inertia, more force is needed to move the object, and therefore mass is a resistance to acceleration."

Your baseball analogy has a variable in the velocity. So if your playing style has not changed, Less energy will be exerted due to less mass. Does not matter anyway, I hold on to my neck when I play.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby spudmunkey » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:27 am

So I got to the right destination, but just took the wrong route. :lol:

An object at rest stays at rest, and an object with more mass takes more force to move, so a neck with a headstock on the end would take more force to get to move., no?

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:19 pm

No. In this case, you're also dealing with torque as a function of the on-strap stability of the instrument, the static coefficient of friction between your strap and the shirt, between strap and the strap pins, the mass of the instrument both above and below the centre of gravity, and a billion other factors. F=ma as it applies to the above-nut area of the neck is only a small piece of the problem.

Without doing any math whatsoever, I can tell you that a much greater proportion of a headless guitar's mass lies below the instrument's centre of gravity than a regular guitar, specifically because of the absence of a headstock. As a result, the only headstock waggle you're likely to see will occur under the specific condition that the guitarist is having a grand mal seizure while playing.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby gibvel » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:24 pm

Koshchei wrote: As a result, the only headstock waggle you're likely to see will occur under the specific condition that the guitarist is having a grand mal seizure while playing.


Wow!!! you guys have, most certainly, taken this post off topic in a most entertaining way. :lol:

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby toejam » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:34 am

gibvel wrote:
TylerE wrote:1) Tuning is harder. It just it. The knobs are don't give a ton of leverage due the diameter, and the placement is pretty cramped too. This is compounded by having to pick the note and tune with the same hand. It's not a _huge_ deal, but it is a thing. Especially if you frequently change tuning (e.g. between E std and something like Open G) it's gonna annoy.

I also thought about this but you have to do the same thing with a Floyd or any locking trem that tunes at the trem. Of course different if you have a fixed bridge..


A Floyd is not meant to be tuned at the bridge, though. Tune up at the headstock like normal, and the fine-tuners are there just in case you need to "fine tune" the note after the nut is locked down (if you have a locking nut).

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Toptube » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:30 pm

The idea that lacking the weight of a headstock and tuners could create a squirly feel is not wrong.

In Archery, most people have a stabilizer weight sticking out the front of their bow. Many people put weighted foregrips on guns or generally prefer the feel of a heavier metal barrel, Vs. A composite one. Even with computer mice: High end gaming mice have weights you can put inside them.

It comes down to the player. Some people like the push back from that extra mass and it actually helps them move less. Different grips on the neck and overall average gripping strength all vary between players and styles. The way some people grip a bass neck, I could never play. Yet they are overall better than I. Arm length, etc.

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby spudmunkey » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:06 pm

Koshchei wrote:No. In this case, you're also dealing with torque as a function of the on-strap stability of the instrument, the static coefficient of friction between your strap and the shirt, between strap and the strap pins, the mass of the instrument both above and below the centre of gravity, and a billion other factors. F=ma as it applies to the above-nut area of the neck is only a small piece of the problem.

Without doing any math whatsoever, I can tell you that a much greater proportion of a headless guitar's mass lies below the instrument's centre of gravity than a regular guitar, specifically because of the absence of a headstock. As a result, the only headstock waggle you're likely to see will occur under the specific condition that the guitarist is having a grand mal seizure while playing.


Ahh, I see. We're comparing two different effects of the missing headstock.

I'm talking about a guitar in a resting position, and then the player moving when they play or move. A headstock is less likely to move around. Like...swinging a flyswatter instead of a bat. If you apply the same force from, say, moving your hand up to the 12th fret to play a lick, the "flyswatter" (headless guitar neck) will move more, and more quickly.

You're talking about an actual headstock's extra gravity, and it's desire to meet the ground, which you sometimes have to battle.

To be honest, I have no idea which phenomenon was referenced by the first person to bring up the "waggle". :laughhard:

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Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Bob77 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:38 pm

Thread got into physics and math :laughhard:

I have played a Vader at the old factory location. It was a very comfortable guitar to play.

However, I was in the market for a headless guitar I would probably go with the HH2 instead. That body style is more appealing to me personally.
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