Vader guitar... pros and cons.

USA Custom Shop Acoustic and Electric Guitars

Moderators: Kevio, ElfDude, JesseM, RockCrue, soundchick, ChrisH, peb, Mike Jones, Bundy

User avatar
Tabare777
Carvinite
Carvinite
Posts: 987
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Building S4, Groom Lake Facility
Links/Contact:

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Tabare777 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:19 pm

No cons just pros in my humble opinion,
The weight, ergo design not only the body but also the fretboard (not only string tension but hand position)
Is just so comfortable, then being chambered also gives you the louder acoustic tone
as well as being able to feel it resonating against your chest(don't know if y'all feel it) as you play is brilliant...

VM8 Image
My perfect guitar
:applause:
Image
Tabare777 WEBSITE
Kiesel VM8 & Carvin DC800
DV Mark Little 40II & Mesa Dual Recto 2x12 Cab

User avatar
Doctor Turn
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 4796
Joined: Aug 2015
Location: NYC, sans rock clubs and 48th St.
Links/Contact:

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Doctor Turn » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:14 am

Nothing like that--when you have one of those very special builds where everything comes together just right.

Every electric guitar vibrates to some degree or other, but you know you've a very special guitar in your hand when you strum it acoustically, unplugged, and the thing vibrates like an alarm clock in your hands and against your body.

Everyone's heard me creaming over my old Carvin, the pickups, the trem system.... But really it all boils down to the wood and the way it's put together. This guitar was erupting with woody tone when it first arrived to me from the Carvin shop when initially bought it. But the seasoning of that old growth koa, it's not something you encounter every day or even every year. I've played guitars which were that alive before, that vibrated against your body like it was being electrocuted rather than strummed, but most of them were very old slab axes like Les Paul specials from the 50's played in the old used gear shops on the now vanished 48th st here in NYC. (Once upon a time you could play thru tons of used guitars and find the good one you wanted, without having to pay return shipping each time. :roll: what a sh*%%y time we live in for shopping used guitars, although I have to thank my stars I've done well on the used market)

But you're right, it's brilliant when you find THAT guitar that--when NEW mind you--reacts that hugely to strums. Wait until a decade passes and the wood seasons and all the parts equalize and essentially become one. What's happened to my old Carvin is witchcraft.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

User avatar
Tabare777
Carvinite
Carvinite
Posts: 987
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Building S4, Groom Lake Facility
Links/Contact:

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Tabare777 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:56 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:Nothing like that--when you have one of those very special builds where everything comes together just right.

Every electric guitar vibrates to some degree or other, but you know you've a very special guitar in your hand when you strum it acoustically, unplugged, and the thing vibrates like an alarm clock in your hands and against your body.

Everyone's heard me creaming over my old Carvin, the pickups, the trem system.... But really it all boils down to the wood and the way it's put together. This guitar was erupting with woody tone when it first arrived to me from the Carvin shop when initially bought it. But the seasoning of that old growth koa, it's not something you encounter every day or even every year. I've played guitars which were that alive before, that vibrated against your body like it was being electrocuted rather than strummed, but most of them were very old slab axes like Les Paul specials from the 50's played in the old used gear shops on the now vanished 48th st here in NYC. (Once upon a time you could play thru tons of used guitars and find the good one you wanted, without having to pay return shipping each time. :roll: what a sh*%%y time we live in for shopping used guitars, although I have to thank my stars I've done well on the used market)

But you're right, it's brilliant when you find THAT guitar that--when NEW mind you--reacts that hugely to strums. Wait until a decade passes and the wood seasons and all the parts equalize and essentially become one. What's happened to my old Carvin is witchcraft.


Too right brother :mrgreen:

In terms of design and overall quality, this surpasses everything I've played...
I suppose all the things I've mentioned as pros are to do with MY personal taste
and may not appeal to everyone though...
Image
Tabare777 WEBSITE
Kiesel VM8 & Carvin DC800
DV Mark Little 40II & Mesa Dual Recto 2x12 Cab

User avatar
brento73
Carvinite
Carvinite
Posts: 644
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Kansas

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby brento73 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:25 pm

texastoast wrote:
spudmunkey wrote:
texastoast wrote:Head waggle meet Issac Newton. Less mass = more stability.


Wouldn't the opposite be true, per Newton? More mass = more inertia (which is resistance to acceleration). This is the whole reason baseball players swing with two bats before stepping up to the plate, so that when they put down the bat and halve the mass, the same applied energy causes much more and faster movement. Consider a jet-ski coming to a crossing with an aircraft carrier...which one's gonna have to move out of the way of the other? :mrgreen:


Force = velocity times mass. The only thing in this example that has changed is less mass. Also to to be a technical nit picker, the mass is the resistance to acceleration, inertia is the force applied or stored to overcome the resistance.
Straight out of my text book, "The more weight/mass an object has, the more inertia it has. If inertia increases, then the object will require more force to move (accelerate) in any direction. Because the mass increases the object's inertia, more force is needed to move the object, and therefore mass is a resistance to acceleration."

Your baseball analogy has a variable in the velocity. So if your playing style has not changed, Less energy will be exerted due to less mass. Does not matter anyway, I hold on to my neck when I play.


Hmmm.... just interested in the physics here, more than the Vader :)

So, I would say 'stability' is how much the guitar moves?
And my playing style involves adding energy to the 'guitar system', right?
So, less mass in the guitar means it is more likely to move when I'm adding that energy.

More mass = more stable

Edit:

It occurs to me that part of the confusion may come from the word 'stable'.

Generally, when guitarist use the word, we're talking about staying in tune/neck staying where we put it/etc. In this case, although I don't think the extra mass of the headstock is going to actually matter, less mass might be 'more stable'.

That said, my understanding of the 'waggle' was not the neck flexing, but the neck MOVING, because the whole guitar is moving, because there's less mass to resist that movement. In which case, more mass is more stable.

User avatar
Koshchei
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 2438
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Peterborough, Ontario

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:37 pm

Less pseudoscience; more talk of Vaders.

Image
Image

User avatar
brento73
Carvinite
Carvinite
Posts: 644
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Kansas

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby brento73 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:41 pm

But... it's real science.

Fair point, though. I suppose, since I'm here, my only question concerns the maximum string gauge that will fit the head piece? I assume the 7 and 8 are made to take heavy low strings, but does anyone know the max on the 6?

User avatar
Koshchei
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 2438
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Peterborough, Ontario

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:59 pm

If the gapping is the same as on the 8, I'd have to guess around a 60.

User avatar
brento73
Carvinite
Carvinite
Posts: 644
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Kansas

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby brento73 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:03 pm

Coolness!

Not sure I want one, but good to know it would work for me.

User avatar
Tabare777
Carvinite
Carvinite
Posts: 987
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Building S4, Groom Lake Facility
Links/Contact:

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Tabare777 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:08 pm

Koshchei wrote:Less pseudoscience; more talk of Vaders.

Image
Image


Incredible, do you give them equal time?
I've been mainly playing my Vader but still love the two DCs I kept...
Image
Tabare777 WEBSITE
Kiesel VM8 & Carvin DC800
DV Mark Little 40II & Mesa Dual Recto 2x12 Cab

User avatar
Koshchei
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 2438
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Peterborough, Ontario

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Koshchei » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:24 pm

Not really. I'm still learning the VM8, so while I have put an hour or so into the older Vader in the last week, I've probably put 40 into the new one. My first observation is that they don't sound startlingly different until you get to the top three treble strings, and then they're VERY different tonally. I'm thinking that this will lead to some really interesting contrapuntal lines where the two will accentuate one another, rather than competing for the same sonic space.

How are you finding the difference with DC800s?

User avatar
Tabare777
Carvinite
Carvinite
Posts: 987
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Building S4, Groom Lake Facility
Links/Contact:

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Tabare777 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:06 pm

TBH, I like how the VM8 feels and sounds more than the DC800s especially on the high strings past 15th fret.
I bought all of mine in 2012 so they all had active pickups, in my first one I put Ionizers with a 5 way, it made a great difference but the Ionizers weren't 100% right for me and so I sold it, I'm having SD Sentient & Pegasus set in one of my others(DC800 with spalted maple top) & hopefully like the tone more, but VM8 is my fave for sure!
Image
Tabare777 WEBSITE
Kiesel VM8 & Carvin DC800
DV Mark Little 40II & Mesa Dual Recto 2x12 Cab

metalgarth
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 464
Joined: Jan 2007

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby metalgarth » Thu May 18, 2017 7:11 am

The only "con" I see to the Vader, and I've had one since the model was introduced, is that strings can't be changed easily.

gibvel
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 219
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Colorado

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby gibvel » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:08 am

metalgarth wrote:The only "con" I see to the Vader, and I've had one since the model was introduced, is that strings can't be changed easily.


Hmmmm, I thought this was one of the advantages of the headless. Strings are easier to change than the conventional tuners! Why do you say they can't be changed easily? What makes them more difficult than a conventional guitar?

User avatar
UnexplodedCow
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1397
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: Omnipresence nearly achieved!

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:19 am

The strings are locked down at the head(less) end by large grub screws, so string changes require an allen wrench, or an allen-bit in a screwdriver. I went with the screwdriver method to save time. It's about on par with a locking/tuner hard tail string swap, only I need 2 tools (allen driver and cutters) instead of 1. Or, the extra string length can be left on the guitar, it looks like hair, and can give some really strange sympathetic vibrations.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

Guitar theorem: G=X+1 where G= guitars one needs, and X = guitars one has.

Do or do not; there is no understand.

marzzz
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Apr 2014

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby marzzz » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:29 pm

metalgarth wrote:The only "con" I see to the Vader, and I've had one since the model was introduced, is that strings can't be changed easily.
Hmmm, IDK...I have an HH2X and the string changes are so quick, I even stopped using dbl-ball strings. My only question re: the Vader is the Lithium pickups, whether they would be to bright/modern; I am still turning that over in my head prior to considering ordering one. Back to the YouTubes....

User avatar
UnexplodedCow
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1397
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: Omnipresence nearly achieved!

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:47 pm

The Lithium pickups are pretty bright, and more "modern," sounding to me than, say, the C or M series. I like the K12N pickup, and it handles turning the volume down decently, and sounds nice with some overdrive to heavy gain as well. It's bright for a neck pickup, but nothing insane. Some dislike it, and call it sterile. It's a blank canvas.

They're clear, though. I'm not the biggest fan of the bridge pickup, as it has a slight spike in the 1.5-1.6 Khz range that sounds ear-fatiguing to me. I had a set of K12N and B pickups in my Vader at first, and swapped to an M22V/SD set. I've no regrets. The B is great for pinch harmonics, and seemed to be tuned for a lower tuning. I thought it sounded better in D than E standard. Turning down the tone knob to 5 or 6 (or 4) can help, and honestly, that's how I tend to play, and bring up the treble if needed.

Here is a thread with a link to some sound clips I made to compare the Lithium to M series. More info on what amp/etc. is in that thread, but it may help. For me, it's been M series and not looking back.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47755
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

Guitar theorem: G=X+1 where G= guitars one needs, and X = guitars one has.

Do or do not; there is no understand.

gibvel
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 219
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Colorado

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby gibvel » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:46 am

UnexplodedCow wrote:The strings are locked down at the head(less) end by large grub screws, so string changes require an allen wrench, or an allen-bit in a screwdriver. I went with the screwdriver method to save time. It's about on par with a locking/tuner hard tail string swap, only I need 2 tools (allen driver and cutters) instead of 1. Or, the extra string length can be left on the guitar, it looks like hair, and can give some really strange sympathetic vibrations.


Number of tools aside, the action of changing the strings start to finish seems to be quicker to me. Would you say this is a true statement?

I mean I don't usually change strings while playing (unless necessary) so speed isn't usually that big a deal. I usually take them all off and do the fretboard cleaning/lemon oiling so I set aside a bit of time.

User avatar
UnexplodedCow
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1397
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: Omnipresence nearly achieved!

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby UnexplodedCow » Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:04 am

I wouldn't say it's any quicker, but I don't find it any slower, either. It is a simpler process, though, with less string angles.

I might have to get out a stop-watch and time myself to see if it's any different. I wouldn't call it a con, also not a pro. It simply is.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

Guitar theorem: G=X+1 where G= guitars one needs, and X = guitars one has.

Do or do not; there is no understand.

Big O
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Jun 2017

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Big O » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:50 am

This is somewhat off topic, but are you the same gibvel that used to post on the Marc Seal forum?

User avatar
Warg Master
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 485
Joined: May 2012
Location: SLC

Re: Vader guitar... pros and cons.

Postby Warg Master » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:05 am

I've never been one for headless guitars. The Vader has grown me since it's inception. I've been watung and finally pulled the trigger on one. It arrived yesterday. I had to go out of town and didn't get to spend much time with it. However, for wat it is worth, the time I did spend with it. I was blown away. The weight, the feel, the position of it was great. So far,I am sold on this model. Had me contemplating some things... Evil thoughts... I know, still in honeymoon phase. I'll give be it some time... Maybe actually plug it in soon...

I'm not worried about the lithiums. I have them in another guitar and I like the voice. I played with the trem. It was very similar to the contour I already have. Nothing about it gave me any pause. The trem is tight. I love it.
20170623_125546.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
WooooooD!


Return to Kiesel Guitars / Carvin Guitars

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests