CS6 or SCB6? Or?

USA Custom Shop Acoustic and Electric Guitars

Moderators: Kevio, ElfDude, JesseM, RockCrue, soundchick, ChrisH, peb, Mike Jones, Bundy

mikealpine
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 305
Joined: Oct 2012

CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby mikealpine » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:52 am

Hi all,

Need advice on a model. I played a Collings City Limits with ThroBak pickups and really loved the tone. For anyone not familiar, it's an LP-ish guitar, single-cut, short scale (24.75"), Honduran mahogany body, maple cap, 22 frets, was just under 8 pounds. It was too expensive and it wasn't comfortable to play standing, especially where my forearm met the lower bout, the edge really dug into my arm. I'd love to get a Kiesel model that would get me into the same sound range. To me, it was a commanding tone, thick leads just trebly enough to cut through, powerful. The neck was sweet and clear, not muddy at all.

An obvious option is a CS6, built very much the same. I can get a thicker neck, I can chamber it for some weight relief if needed. But there's also the SCB6, and that looks amazingly comfortable, and I can go mahogany body and maple top, plus make it look really classy with all the trim options. I was told I can get a thicker neck, though not an option on the builder, so probably makes it non-returnable.

I play mostly classic rock, some modern country and a little blues. I am primarily rhythm, clean or slightly overdriven, occasional leads.

Three questions:
1 - Of these two, which would you suggest and why?
2 - Is there another model that might make more sense?
3 - I can't find too many samples of the Lithium pickups played cleanly, so are these the way to go, or do I go with S22s?

Thank you very much!!

Mike

User avatar
dbone
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby dbone » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:31 am

For “overall” comfort the SCB6 is hard beat with its bevel cut and neck through design. 24 fret and 25”inch scale
The CS is basically a slightly smaller than LP package with a set neck in 22 or 24 fret with a 25”inch scale also very comfortable.
if your looking for clear and articulate pups the lithium’s might fill the bill nicely. The C22N or H22N would fall closer to a traditional PAF sound
and the S22 covered pups are a little darker or warmer sounding. Go online and listen to some clips and compare for yourself.
The GIS has a bunch of nice guitars already built out and some with some nice sale prices also just make sure it is returnable. Some of the really fancy ones are not.
dbones Lefties
DC150 M22T/M22V, DC150 M22SD/M22N
DC400A, K12B/K12N, DC600 M22SD/M22V, DC800 A80B/A80N
AE185 C22T/C22N/Piezo, AE185-12 H22T/H22N/Piezo
CT7M KL14B/KL14N, Bolt C22T/AP11/AP11, AC375, CL450, AC275K, SB5000 J99A pups

User avatar
spudmunkey
Elite Carvinite
Elite Carvinite
Posts: 15922
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:55 am

As much as I love my CS6 and wouldn't trade it for just about anything, my Aries with a Bevel is much more comfortable...supremely so. Looking back, likely the most comfortable guitar I've owned in term of forearm comfort, and I believe the SCB would be near that (not quite 100% since it's not as gradual of a bevel angle) and would likely be more comfortable than the CS6.
Last edited by spudmunkey on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Doctor Turn
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 4712
Joined: Aug 2015
Location: NYC, sans rock clubs and 48th St.
Links/Contact:

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby Doctor Turn » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:32 am

But that, as well as lithiums, will not sound anything like the short scale, set neck guitar that he's looking for. He wants warm, thick, honey pot PAF style short scale tone to replace what he had, and lithiums are a good bit over in the other direction. They're very modern by sound design, and are essentially opposite in sound and philosophy versus a Thro', which is specifically meant to nail those warm vintage tones of yesteryear.

I would say that the CS6 and the CT6 are going to be very close in terms of sound. The CT is probably going to be more comfortable with the double cut Les Paul influenced design. Neither is Gibson scale like that superb Collings, but they're 25 inches which still puts you close enough. At least versus the rest of the guitars in the Kiesel stable. I don't know if Jeff does 25 inch crescents... They have something like a modernized take on the CT/PRS, a set through neck to keep you in the sonic territory that you're looking to go. I'd say the SCB is going to sound somewhat different from what you're hunting, being a full neck through guitar.

Ideally but not obligatory is going 22 fret neck, versus 24 which pushes the neck pickup further away from the 24th fret harmonic which is a big player in that deep rich bubbly neck tone. Pretty sure the crescent is 24 only (I'm not a fan of the shape at all but that's just me, you might like it and I say Right On!")

For PAF style tones, though,
No long scale in a thin soloists style axe (Aries, will sound totally opposite what you're seeking.. it's a strat style axe and will sound like that).

You also might think of the Holdsworth HH, with Alan's pickups. It's the lightest, most comfy thing on earth, and it's Alan's take on the long scale Les Paul style guitar. And the pickups and sweet and warm. It's absolutely possible to go long scale and have the guitar still come out sounding like a Les Paul rather than a Fender strat or Tele (at least when in humbucker mode). You just have to build it to come out that way.

M22'S are warm, rich PAF style pickups. (M22N or M22V, with the M22T in the bridge). I still think they're the best pickups in the house, designed in the late Seventies to go head to head with Gibson on Carvin Les Paul style guitars. C22 are similar, but a little less fat sounding. S22's will get you close to where you want to go. The new 6 pole Holdsworth pups, check.

I would suggest there's far too much presence in the lithiums to recreate the velvety warm PAF style tones you were getting with those awesome Throbaks.

This is probably the nicest demo of the lithiums clean that I've heard. They're getting as close as I've ever heard to moving towards that ballpark of a warm midrangey tone in the neck, but the EQ is still out of whack vs a PAF, and is far too compressed. But it's still a pleasing, lyrical sound that's at least reminiscent of a Throbak style PAF.

https://youtu.be/Nw84ngM5zCc

It's honestly the nicest sound clip I've heard of that lithium neck humbucker. Most of them sound very rattly, a la 52 seconds here
https://youtu.be/F6h08-yXDA8

In any case, my 6L6 and 12ax tubes on my amp are warmed up, and I've babbled enough. Good luck!

In sum my recommend is: CT6 with 22 frets, (plain) koa or korina or mahogany body with maple top. M22's would be my first choice, s22's second (maybe tied with Holdsworth and c22's). Or just get a stock Holdsworth HH2. There's Birch in there, right up there with koa, vintage mahogany and korina as the best tone wood I've played.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

mikealpine
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 305
Joined: Oct 2012

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby mikealpine » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Thanks for the great replies, especially for the videos. The info was really helpful. I liked the clarity of the Lithium neck, but on the second video, the bridge was definitely a bit brighter than I want. I wonder if they’d mix a Holdsworth or S22 bridge with a Lithium neck. Based on this it would seem a 22 fret CS6 or CT6 might be the way to go.

Alternatively, I can go with the body that makes the most sense and buy pickups later. Of course i’d give the Kiesel pickups the chance to shine, but it certainly is an option to change them. I can buy the ThroBak pickups and still come out cheaper than the Collings CL, with a beautifully built and totally more comfortable guitar.

User avatar
dbone
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby dbone » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:47 pm

CS6 stock pickup options

Bridge Pickups
KLB - Kiesel Passive Lithium Bridge Pickup (standard)
22T - C22T Bridge Pickup
35 - M22SD Bridge Pickup
41 - H22T Bridge Pickup
KHB - Kiesel Holdsworth Passive Bridge Pickup
S22B - S22B Bridge Pickup w/ Metal Cover to Match Hardware

Neck Pickups
KLN - Kiesel Passive Lithium Neck Pickup (standard)
22BN - C22B Neck Pickup
42 - H22N Neck Pickup
KHN - Kiesel Holdsworth Passive Neck Pickup
S22J - S22J Neck Pickup w/ Metal Cover to Match Hardware

SCB6 stock pickups

Bridge Pickups
-K12B - Kiesel K12B Passive Bridge Pickup (Standard)
KHB - Kiesel Holdsworth Passive Bridge Pickup
S22B - S22B Bridge Pickup w/ Metal Cover to Match Hardware

Neck Pickups
-K12N - Kiesel K12N Passive Neck Pickup (Standard)
KHN - Kiesel Holdsworth Passive Neck Pickup
S22J - S22J Neck Pickup w/ Metal Cover to Match Hardware
dbones Lefties
DC150 M22T/M22V, DC150 M22SD/M22N
DC400A, K12B/K12N, DC600 M22SD/M22V, DC800 A80B/A80N
AE185 C22T/C22N/Piezo, AE185-12 H22T/H22N/Piezo
CT7M KL14B/KL14N, Bolt C22T/AP11/AP11, AC375, CL450, AC275K, SB5000 J99A pups

User avatar
Doctor Turn
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 4712
Joined: Aug 2015
Location: NYC, sans rock clubs and 48th St.
Links/Contact:

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby Doctor Turn » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:20 pm

What is that^^^ What's up with the complete omission of the M neck pickups? Is that coding for the online (legendarily random and incomplete) builder?
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

User avatar
dbone
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby dbone » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:38 pm

I was under the impression from the previous discontinued 22 pole piece pickups thread that ordering non standard ( IE not included in the builder ) pups even of their own design would void the 10 day. I could be wrong on that so someone correct me please. Just saying that out loud sounds well...rediculous.
I called in and talked to the show room and they were not sure.
dbones Lefties
DC150 M22T/M22V, DC150 M22SD/M22N
DC400A, K12B/K12N, DC600 M22SD/M22V, DC800 A80B/A80N
AE185 C22T/C22N/Piezo, AE185-12 H22T/H22N/Piezo
CT7M KL14B/KL14N, Bolt C22T/AP11/AP11, AC375, CL450, AC275K, SB5000 J99A pups

User avatar
arahobob
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 3918
Joined: Oct 2012
Location: Oakhurst, NJ

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby arahobob » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:02 pm

I'm sure the CS is lovely.
I have a SCB6M and it's insanely comfortable.
Kiesel's neck through access up top is great.
A total one of kind looking axe. Plenty of variety with finish looks with the bevel and tops
The body style is super thin sexy and comfy. A joy to strap on.

I went with a white limba body, no top, 5 piece neck, and the classic m2sd/m22v combo.
Tone for days and days (rock, metal, blues, no problem )
If the old ((superior) pups aren't available or void the 10 day, I'd recommend the new holdworth set or the new singles.
Excellent pups that should fit right into your wheel house.

Theres a link to my scb6 in my signature if you'd like to check it out.
Current Carvins:
2010 Bolt (Candy Red Metallic)
2013 Bolt Plus (Koa)
2016 Black n Blue VSEVEN
2017 TT SCB6

Wish List
Some sort of multiscale 6 HSS with RAD ASH
JB Numbers Guitar (July sale has given me the itch!)

User avatar
Doctor Turn
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 4712
Joined: Aug 2015
Location: NYC, sans rock clubs and 48th St.
Links/Contact:

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby Doctor Turn » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:42 pm

I thought that the 22 pole pups will void the warranty once they're formally gone and you send them in. Afaik, they're still selling them... And anyway dbone you have 22 pole pickups on your lists, just specifically not the M's neck positions (and the T)? You did put the 22SD
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

User avatar
spudmunkey
Elite Carvinite
Elite Carvinite
Posts: 15922
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:07 pm

dbone wrote:I was under the impression from the previous discontinued 22 pole piece pickups thread that ordering non standard ( IE not included in the builder ) pups even of their own design would void the 10


For what it's worth, yes I suppose they are technically 'discontinued', but they are still the standard pickups on some models, and they will continue filing orders for them until they run out. As far as I know, there hasn't been an official date for when they plan to stop offering them, nor has there been any sort of warning in the weekly live vids about "supplies are running low". They just gave a heads up that they weren't going to order any more parts for them once they ran out.
Last edited by spudmunkey on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
dbone
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby dbone » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:16 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:I thought that the 22 pole pups will void the warranty once they're formally gone and you send them in. Afaik, they're still selling them... And anyway dbone you have 22 pole pickups on your lists, just specifically not the M's neck positions (and the T)? You did put the 22SD


You may be right, but yes the unlisted ones that are not in the builder that’s what I am wondering about...it’s not a big deal, just curious
dbones Lefties
DC150 M22T/M22V, DC150 M22SD/M22N
DC400A, K12B/K12N, DC600 M22SD/M22V, DC800 A80B/A80N
AE185 C22T/C22N/Piezo, AE185-12 H22T/H22N/Piezo
CT7M KL14B/KL14N, Bolt C22T/AP11/AP11, AC375, CL450, AC275K, SB5000 J99A pups

User avatar
arahobob
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 3918
Joined: Oct 2012
Location: Oakhurst, NJ

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby arahobob » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:42 pm

The m22sd bridge builder code is 35
The m22v neck builder code is 39.

At least, they were the codes.
Current Carvins:
2010 Bolt (Candy Red Metallic)
2013 Bolt Plus (Koa)
2016 Black n Blue VSEVEN
2017 TT SCB6

Wish List
Some sort of multiscale 6 HSS with RAD ASH
JB Numbers Guitar (July sale has given me the itch!)

mikealpine
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 305
Joined: Oct 2012

Re: CS6 or SCB6? Or?

Postby mikealpine » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:34 pm

arahobob wrote:I'm sure the CS is lovely.
I have a SCB6M and it's insanely comfortable.
Kiesel's neck through access up top is great.
A total one of kind looking axe. Plenty of variety with finish looks with the bevel and tops
The body style is super thin sexy and comfy. A joy to strap on.

I went with a white limba body, no top, 5 piece neck, and the classic m2sd/m22v combo.
Tone for days and days (rock, metal, blues, no problem )
If the old ((superior) pups aren't available or void the 10 day, I'd recommend the new holdworth set or the new singles.
Excellent pups that should fit right into your wheel house.

Theres a link to my scb6 in my signature if you'd like to check it out.


The comfort aspect is what drew me to that model, that and the Aries. But there’s a tone profile I’m trying to get to. It was mentioned above, “creamy” yet powerful and clear. Based on how the Collings is built, the CS6 is a closer match, and I wasn’t sure if the neck-through SCB6M would get close. Yours is beautiful! If that model worked for me, i’d go hog body and maple cap because that is also part of the Collings recipe. That being said, in many ways comfort is more important overall; if the guitar isn’t comfy, I won’t pick it up.


Return to Kiesel Guitars / Carvin Guitars

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests