Build Quality Consistency

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bshadel
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Build Quality Consistency

Postby bshadel » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:26 pm

Hey guys,

This thread got me thinking: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49773

Of the six Carvin/Kiesel guitars I've bought, every one of them has had a manufacturing and/or workmanship defect. I've had to return two of them, the others I've been able to repair.

Jeff has talked a lot about "attention to detail" and my response to that would be "from whose perspective?" Overall I still think these are great playing guitars but the defects and oversights really irk me.

What have been your experiences?

Bryan.
Last edited by bshadel on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kiesel DC600H Lefty
Fender Squier Lefty Strat
Kiesel DC727
Kiesel CT624
Carvin B50
Carvin DC127
Carvin CT424
Ibanez JS1200
Fender American Deluxe Strat

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spudmunkey
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:20 pm

You're going to get all sorts of responses from people who both had flawless experiences over the years, and some that had flaws...but unless either of those scenarios are very recent, they don't take into account any changes that have been put in place recently (either in the build process or final QC). Someone's amazing discontinued model from 1981 doesn't help you, and nether would someone bad experience in 2015, for example.

For example, they put an additional set of knowledgeable eyes as a final check of QC and spec-check on every instrument. Were your issues after they've put this into place? I know my last one, May of 2016, was before it and yet it was still great. And my CS6 from 2008 was also flawless....but I'm not blind to others that have had issues both before and after I've received mine.

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bshadel
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby bshadel » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:31 pm

spudmunkey wrote:You're going to get all sorts of responses from people who both had flawless experiences over the years, and some that had flaws...but unless either of those scenarios are very recent, they don't take into account any changes that have been put in place recently (either in the build process or final QC). Someone's amazing discontinued model from 1981 doesn't help you, and nether would someone bad experience in 2015, for example.

For example, they put an additional set of knowledgeable eyes as a final check of QC and spec-check on every instrument. Were your issues after they've put this into place? I know my last one, May of 2016, was before it and yet it was still great. And my CS6 from 2008 was also flawless....but I'm not blind to others that have had issues both before and after I've received mine.


Good point...my oldest Carvin is a 2011 build. My three newest are all from 2017.
Kiesel DC600H Lefty
Fender Squier Lefty Strat
Kiesel DC727
Kiesel CT624
Carvin B50
Carvin DC127
Carvin CT424
Ibanez JS1200
Fender American Deluxe Strat

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Koshchei
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Koshchei » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:48 am

No flaws to report. All five of mine have come out perfectly.

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arahobob
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby arahobob » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:50 am

I'm usually very critical of kiesels QC blunders, so I should share a positive QC moment from my last build.
The spec list on the box has some wrong information on it - opt 50 replace neck humbucker with a single coil (not part of my specs)

Someone at the factory picked up on the discrepancies and crossed out the bad information.
The build came out perfectly.
The QC guys were on their A game that day.
Current Carvins:
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CMGio
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby CMGio » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:35 pm

I haven't purchased a guitar from Kiesel since they were still part of the Carvin Corporation, so my experience could be very different from others.

I've ordered 3 guitars from Carvin (an op50 DC135, an op50 TL60 and a CS4) -- all of them were perfect when I received them. If they have any defects, I've yet to notice.

I've also acquired 2 more. A 1988 DC125 and a DC600. They too, aside from the normal wear and tear of being used instruments, are also phenomenal guitars with no defects, as far as I am concerned.

However, over the last few years, from my perspective, a lot more errors and defects have been coming out of the factory, to varying degrees.
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2011 DC131C
2012 TL60C
1988 DC125R
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2014 DC600C


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Mr Seafoam
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Mr Seafoam » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:02 am

My experience is similar to the OP's. I received five guitars in 2017, four of them with mistakes of one kind or another. Two I sent back for correction, one I had fixed locally, and one I just lived with. I still love Kiesels and have another one coming in about a month so it hasn't cured my itch for them.

I think they should dry the necks for longer periods of time as well. Fret sprout may not be a problem in California or other humid states but all my Kiesels felt like medieval torture devices once they settled into the dry climate of Colorado. They definitely don't let the neck woods cure long enough, even though they make a big deal out of the process.

Just my own personal experience, YMMV.

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Doctor Doug
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Doctor Doug » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:33 am

All I've had from them is my Carvin era Bolt+ kit and my Kiesel CS6. Both showed up perfect.

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skully13a
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby skully13a » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:16 pm

My only experience new is my SH645, bought in 2015 from GIS. Exemplary.
I did get a bolt kit in 2016, it had the wrong pick guard, but I made it work.
All my other Carvins are used, but they're amazing guitars. :rockon:
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ElfDude
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby ElfDude » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:35 pm

Mr Seafoam wrote: Fret sprout may not be a problem in California or other humid states but all my Kiesels felt like medieval torture devices once they settled into the dry climate of Colorado.


Same problem in Utah.

But they've never messed up on any of my builds. I love their guitars so much.
Aries A6H, CS6M, SH445, Contour 66, AE185, DC135, CT4M, Bolt, SH225, LB76F, Nomad, VT16 Head, V410, Pro Bass 100
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Toptube
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Toptube » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:32 pm

I have made three orders. 2 basses and 1 set of pickups. Multiple mistakes were made, with all three. The most recent, a bass, hit final QC about 2 or 3 weeks after Chris Hong started doing final QC on every guitar.

Problem resolution is generally a strong point at Kiesel (based on my own experiences and also what I see from others with issues, who actually contact Kiesel for resolution). Aside from some delays, I have always had really great experiences final resolutions for the issues I have experienced. But, dealing with problems at all, is of course, annoying.

I like Kiesel a lot, obviously i'm still here on the forum, and I do defend them on their good points. But I will also talk about the negatives. :rockon:
Last edited by Toptube on Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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DesmoBob
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby DesmoBob » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:41 pm

When it was new, my DC145 only had a minor issue where the 1/4" jack loosened up by itself after a few days. Other than that, it was perfect. Long-term review--it seems to have developed an intermittent grounding issue with the 1/4" jack (or something upstream). I wiggled all the wires in the control cavity, and it stopped.

My CL450, the guitar itself, was fine when I bought it from GIS. The only issue was that it came with a damaged D string.

My DC600 was fine.

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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Sparky131 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:04 pm

I've had mine for over a year now and the frets have always felt a bit "pokey" and it's now starting to worry me a bit. Anyone know if filing them would do the trick? Never had a guitar w/stainless steel frets so I'm not sure what work would be needed for that.

Minor issue, and it might be more of an issue with the wood settling so I don't really point too much at build quality. Mostly because I don't really know.
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1993 Ibanez SR890

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/Y\
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby /Y\ » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:00 pm

I think the OP has a valid point. I got my Vader this past spring with two small defects: one fret end was overly filed, scraping the side of the fretboard, and the headpiece was attached ever so slightly off center. I buffed out the former and just live with the latter, doesn't affect functionality. Still an awesome guitar, but these things do detract from the buying experience.

As far as fret sprout a year or more down the road, this can happen on any guitar. I don't see that so much as a QC issue because wood will be wood. But if the frets were pokey to begin with, that's not acceptable. Buy a fret dressing file and fix them yourself:

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/To ... _File.html

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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Bward666 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:32 pm

Planning my first build and considering a raw tone finish. I know this voids the 10 day trial period but surely if there are manufacturing defects/quality control issues they would takes steps to rectify it?

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Mr Seafoam
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Mr Seafoam » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:47 pm

/Y\ wrote:
As far as fret sprout a year or more down the road, this can happen on any guitar. I don't see that so much as a QC issue because wood will be wood. But if the frets were pokey to begin with, that's not acceptable. Buy a fret dressing file and fix them yourself:



God I hate holier-than-thou trolls on the internet. All my Kiesels got BAD fret sprout very soon after I received them. I'm talking pretty much within days, at the most a few weeks. Not a year, smart ass. I did buy fret files and I did file them down myself. Does that make you happy? That shouldn't happen on $2000+ guitars and I hate having to take fret files to a brand new guitar. I have expensive Warriors, MJs, Zions, etc. that I've had for years and years and the fret ends still feel perfect. It's all in the wood prep. They do NOT allow enough moisture to come out of that wood. I'm guessing it's just because the neck wood hasn't really been aged, just dried in a kiln. Older wood doesn't do it as much. I know as much or more about guitars than you do and I've been in the guitar business for 16 years. Don't talk down to me and act like i don't know about fret files. The point is, it happened to every single one of the guitars so it was no fluke. This doesn't happen on most high-end guitars that I've come across. Especially not to this degree. Cheap guitars? Sure, it's expected but still doesn't happen 100% of the time.

Am I saying they're crap and I wouldn't buy another? Of course not, I like the guitars very much and play them more than I play some of my old favorites. I have another coming next month and I'll fix the frets as soon as it needs it (and it will need it).

I've got some other interesting uses for fret files that I'd like to share with you LOL

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spudmunkey
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:07 pm

You read way more hostility/snark into his reply than I did. :shock:

Nombrecomun
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Nombrecomun » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:29 pm

I received my first Kiesel last November. I've never had any other Kiesel/Carvin guitars before so I can't compare. It had a cosmetic defect in the finish. I spotted it right away after opening the case. It's as if something ever so slightly trailed along the finish leaving some small puncture marks. It really did take away from the excitement of finally getting a guitar from this company. That magic moment was lost.

Initially I was upset. These are expensive guitars and I expect perfection especially for a company that touts quality and excellence. I hold the brand at a high level. Plenty of back and forth emails. If I wanted them to take a look at it I would have to ship it back at my expense and risk something else happening in the to and fro. I didn't send it back. But unfortunately the standard at which I held Carvin/Kiesel took a dip.

I also have to realistically balance this with the idea that Kiesel/Carvin is no longer the small shop it used to be. It's now competing, or trying to compete, with bigger dogs and probably pumping out guitars at a much faster pace than they've had before. Some of us have had these discussions in the previous joint BBS regarding what would happen when this company started to get more exposure.

I just hope they're able to keep this stuff in check. People for whatever reasons will forgive the established brands but they won't do that for a 'newcomer'.

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ElfDude
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby ElfDude » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:12 pm

Let's all remember rule C (shown above).
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Re: Build Quality Consistency

Postby Nombrecomun » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:11 am

ElfDude wrote:Let's all remember rule C (shown above).


I'm missing the reference. I don't see rule C. Am I missing something?


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