New Model?

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arahobob
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Re: New Model?

Postby arahobob » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:14 pm

Omsong wrote:Strandberg's have a mystique that Kiesel's don't (yet). Plus, to me, Stransberg designs are way 'cool'er, but of course everyone has their own preference. Interesting comparison on YouTube between a Vadar and a Strandberg (Spoiler - for the money, the Strandberg was the winner...)

With the rabid success of the Vadar, I think Jeff sees a huge market potential for a (slightly) lower cost, bolt neck headles; and I bet that he is right. I just don't know how well the Zeus design will go over - time will tell. I personally think it could have been better executed, but Kiesel doesn't do anything by market research. It seems a bit presumptuous that a company would release a new product without first conducting market testing. Most companies run test product by groups of sample customers before committing to manufacture, but then Kiesel is not your typical company. Heck, signature guitars often go through 10 or 20 prototypes... (My guess market research in this case was a pass through the sales office with a prototype and "Hey guys, don't you just love my latest masterpiece"... An Emperor who wears no clothes like scenario. Hmm, I wonder how the Vanquish is selling?)

Ultimately, buyers will vote with their wallets, and my gut feeling is that the Zeus will be a profit winner. It's also a savvy sales strategy to offer a lower cost model at the same time prices were raised on the exiting ones.


As a side note, strandberg is releasing a tele style at nam.
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Doctor Turn
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Re: New Model?

Postby Doctor Turn » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:11 pm

Omsong wrote:Strandberg's have a mystique that Kiesel's don't (yet). Plus, to me, Stransberg designs are way 'cool'er, but of course everyone has their own preference. Interesting comparison on YouTube between a Vadar and a Strandberg (Spoiler - for the money, the Strandberg was the winner...)

With the rabid success of the Vadar, I think Jeff sees a huge market potential for a (slightly) lower cost, bolt neck headles; and I bet that he is right. I just don't know how well the Zeus design will go over - time will tell. I personally think it could have been better executed, but Kiesel doesn't do anything by market research. It seems a bit presumptuous that a company would release a new product without first conducting market testing. Most companies run test product by groups of sample customers before committing to manufacture, but then Kiesel is not your typical company. Heck, signature guitars often go through 10 or 20 prototypes... (My guess market research in this case was a pass through the sales office with a prototype and "Hey guys, don't you just love my latest masterpiece"... An Emperor who wears no clothes like scenario. Hmm, I wonder how the Vanquish is selling?)

Ultimately, buyers will vote with their wallets, and my gut feeling is that the Zeus will be a profit winner. It's also a savvy sales strategy to offer a lower cost model at the same time prices were raised on the exiting ones.


Good God man.. everyone around here knows I'm not anything vaguely resembling a lithium champion. But whomever could listen to the musicality of those two guitars in that comparison between the Kiesel and the Strandberg (and you also know I'm a fan of much that the Swedes do and have been doing.) and think that Strandberg sounded better than the Kiesel is smoking some serious carnuba wax. The neck, bridge and pickups on the Kiesel were working very well in harmony and were light years more musically cohesive, delivered a coherent musical sound (the strand was scratchy and blobby) and only serve to reinforce at very least my tremendous dislike for EMG pups. This isn't even a result of musical taste in my part because I dislike the sound of the Kiesel as well, but this is based on personal musical preference, not a sense that I'm hearing hardware on a guitar completely fail on their sonic mission on behalf of the user..

It just goes to show that ergonomics and twisty necks and light bodies can only go so far. You still are going to have to deliver music to at least a few discerning listeners.. You can pull out a klunky old stock Les Paul Special with a wraparound bridge that only takes tens/doesn't intonate and sound like god. Those lithiums destroyed those horrible emgs.
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Re: New Model?

Postby Cynical » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:25 pm

To be fair to the Strandberg/EMGs, both guitars are in the same tuning but one is a six-string and one is a seven-string, which means that his amp is having to deal with a low B (or something around that range, I don't have perfect pitch so I couldn't tell you exactly what tuning he's in) from the Strandberg that it isn't have to deal with from the Kiesel. I'm not anti-low-tuning (I'm a death metal guy and all of my guitars are tuned to B right now), but you *do* have to dial in your gear very differently if you're going with that kind of tuning. Strong mid-scoops that sound good in standard sound like garbage in baritone. That's probably not the whole reason the Strandberg sounds terrible there, but it is contributing a lot.

(Also, "for the money" strikes me as a strange phrase, since the Strandberg is about $500 more expensive.)

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Re: New Model?

Postby DannyB819 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:22 pm

gumbynotpokey wrote:I now strongly suspect that the plan is to eliminate all pre-split models.....but I might be wrong. Time will tell.


That's what I've been saying for a while.

In the 80s/early 90s, it seemed that Carvin was a popular niche instrument for those wanting a custom-spec'd Super Strat in what consumers couldn't get from Ibanez, Jackson, Charvel, Kramer, etc, and then as the kind of music that made Super Strats popular died down, the company found itself without a real niche. They tried being the less expensive alternative Anderson and Fender (and to some degree, Suhr) with the C66, Bolt+, and Bolt, the less expensive customizable alternative to PRS and Gibson with the CT, CS, and SH, but now with an exploding, but niche market appearing in extended range guitars, Jeff has carved out (or should I say "beveled out") a place in the market similar to where the company was in the late 80s and early 90s, but on a much grander scale.

The company is now offering extended range super high quality guitars that are head and shoulders above the mass-market guitars from Korea and China with the huge bonus of being customizable. The quality is (I would expect) on par with or close to that of the other high end builders making similar ERGs in Europe, Japan, and USA and is still competitive in pricing on optioned-up models.

Getting in early in the multi-scale 7 and 8 string market was super smart as there's virtually no affordable custom shop competition in the range. And I think if the company wants to be taken as seriously as possible in that world, the dad-rock guitars (Bolt+, C66, TL60, CT, CS, etc) will likely have to go away. I also still think as I've state before that the pre-split models will all eventually disappear due to legal provisions of the split, be them royalties on the designs or something else. I think most of these models will get a facelift so that there isn't a hole in the lineup as the Crescent is an updated CT, but I think the old models as they are will all go away in favor of a "Kiesel-fied" version.

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Re: New Model?

Postby Cynical » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:16 am

The idea that "dad-rock" guitars need to go away for an ERG company to be seen as legit is really strange given that the two most popular brands among the seven and eight string crowd are still Ibanez and ESP, both of whom have some more traditional models complementing the 7/8 string instruments.

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Re: New Model?

Postby gpbarnett » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:34 am

Old / Pre-Split models going away: I vaguely recall Jeff saying that there will always be at least one Carvin model. I think was that so they could maintain the trademark. Not sure if the demise of Carvin Audio has any impact on that. I don't think any model that has decent sales will get discontinued, but we'll see.

Builder: There is no builder for the Zeus models, only call-in or email. Does anyone know if this is temporary? The current builder obviously has limitations, but not having anything available to show options/pricing is frustrating.

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Re: New Model?

Postby GreenMeanie » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:13 am

I would of liked to see something like this. He could of added the bottom horn and his top horn and bevel it less or only in back near trem.
His model seems to cater towards the CHUGGA CHUGGA music but who knows maybe it will play awesome for 80's music and classical too.


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Re: New Model?

Postby dbone » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:02 am

Ok I went to the Strandberg site and it appears they have one body style. It’s a pretty cool body style for what it is but every model they make is that body style, add strings scales pick guards and finishes. Or did I miss something besides that ugly signature guitar.
They do have a angled multi scale headpiece so I gotta givem points there.

I believe Kiesel can continue serving multiple genres of music provided they package those offerings well.
We will see how their latest offerings fair soon enough. With models like the Crescent and SH6 being released recently I am not worried about direction.
Kiesel will bring their new goodies to NAAM and gauge reception and create buzz. NAMM I would imagine is not a room full of yes men. Nor are discussion boards So they will know where people stand on a new design pretty quick.
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Re: New Model?

Postby GreenMeanie » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:51 am

Do they split the difference from the HUMP or middle when ordering the different string models offered?
The SIX string looks like it has a bigger HUMP to me maybe a illusion.

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Re: New Model?

Postby dbone » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:23 am

From the looks of it the body size is the same on all models. To me the 8 string version looks best with the neck to body thickness/appearance. and the 7 and 6 become a little more less optimum at least to my preference, it would look better to me if it was not a one size body fits all necks approach.
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Re: New Model?

Postby Omsong » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:21 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:Good God man.. everyone around here knows ...



Hahahha Good God man, that was a funny reply! To be accurate that assessment was the reviewer's not mine, as I'm sure you were aware. :lol:
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Re: New Model?

Postby Omsong » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:58 pm

I would blame the Zeus shape on the new California Recreational Pot law, but that only went into effect last week. :lol:
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Re: New Model?

Postby Doctor Turn » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:31 pm

Omsong: i know, I was responding only to the reviewer, and how in conflict his decision was versus what I heard and a vast amount of the comments on his upload.

Here I go again..

The Danny Dad Rock post: now THAT was some funny @#$&!! I take it that at least some of that was meant tongue in cheek.. The idea that a guitar company has to obliterate all traces of it's former luthiery just to survive among the Happening Young Bucks (sound of rhythmic finger snaps a la "Cool" in West Side Story) has got to be the craziest or the saddest, but I don't think anyone looks at business with that much active disbelief in their own company history. Especially in this year of insane reissues, relicing, fetishization of the past among kids who openly complain about the state of popular music today. Kiesel is doing better than ever with a nice blend of new and old, and the old continues to sell well despite not even being marketed. So my point is any withdrawals from the line of things that are selling (m22's anyone?) are purely out of personal preference rather than profit. (HH7, gone. CS/CT, still strong)

Pretty much everything in any luthiery is Dad Rock including fanned frets, erg, headless, etc. This is the second "big wave" of head less guitars, erg started with jazz players of yore, fanned frets are ancient but have been in electrics for years, etc. The only thing different is the very specific style of musical sensibility of chug chugging interspersed with Morse code like patterns (which itself is an extension of Eighties Crimson and all of 'difficult' Zappa.)

I live in NYC with about as vibrant a music scene as you'll find these days in terms of dudes out there still trying to make it, live the dream, etc, and if anything most of the best guys are musically noncommittal. Millennials are very musically open, decently informed, and appreciate a lot of different styles, and their biggest problem is their survival need dictating that they will not commit to anything that won't regularly pay their bills. So you find young players ready willing and able to play anything, and do on a monthly basis, unwilling to be loyal to one single band or style so they don't close off any opportunities. Really skilled singers, drummers, keys, etc, they just want to get out there and play.

I don't think I've ever once run into a young kid who looks at Manic Depression as Dad Rock, or thinks Black Dog or any Zep, or vintage Mountain, or Sabbath, or eighties metal, or vintage progressive, etc, as Dad Rock. They have a great reverence for that stuff, they chase "backwards" with a lot of their equipment, seeking a connection with the past by trying to buy good vintage or vintage style equipment.

You'll find very very few musicians on TV, or in bands trying to get signed or get their music associated with something lucrative playing headless, or erg. That's mostly a subset of YouTube musicians and midget venue bands mostly--mostly--making not penny one.

As much as I'm not crazy about the modern day music scene, I like the average millennial working musician a good bit. Their minds are wide open, and because the situation is what it is, they close nothing off and learn to develop appreciation for lots of material. They're also exposed to just about everything they search because most of the entire history of all music is sitting right there on YouTube, whereas my generation had to go out and buy everything slowly... If I wanted to see Mingus as Dolphy play Meditations live, I couldn't. Certainly couldn't in five seconds. Same goes for everything from the Stones to Dream Theater to Aaron Copeland.
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1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

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Re: New Model?

Postby Toptube » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:10 pm

Many strangely presumptuous comments in here.

Kiesel owns the entire Carvin guitar brand. They have said this multiple times. There is no connection to Carvin Audio. They do not have to get rid of anything. However, I can understand why they are. This company is very vocal. Much more so than the majority of their peers. Maybe we should listen to them.

I seriously doubt that their product line will ever be completely rid of shapes inspired by "classic" guitars. However, many people who want the classic stuff------actually buy the real thing. Jeff knows this and has said it. However, there is merit to the idea of the Kiesel DNA infused into a classic inspired shape. And so we still have some of those models available.

I think people also often gloss over the fact that Kiesel has way more models than most other brands. Ok, maybe they discontinue YOUR fave. But some shifting of a multi-model lineup, is not a crazy thing. What is crazy is when a classic company like Gibson, discontinues Their Thunderbird bass every other year. And doesn't even have a direct link to their basses, from their main page. Its like they want to kill the second most important bass in popular history.

Jeff builds prototypes and tests them around with their endorsers. Are his shapes always the best? Maybe not. But the core design elements are really the same as ever. And that, in my opinion, is what really drives the fanbase here. Regardless, their output is exponentially more varied than ever. And more often than not, their designs are good. The Vader guitar is great. The Crescent is amazing and I hope they make a bass version. The Vanquish guitar is even better than the bass. The multiple personalities of the Ares makes it a pretty amazing model.

Why do people distrust Jeff's ability so much? Is it because he's less camera shy than you? Are you jealous his wife is a babe? Is it because he's a California dude with that funny sunshine lingo? Is it because he was born into a family business----which he has embraced wholeheartedly and has grown beyond expectation? Is it because he often works in front of the camera and proves his ability? Wait, what?

What IS a good name for a guitar? And why are those names better than any Kiesel name?

If Kiesel has any problem, its that they still need to improve their accuracy with build specs and improve consistency of their quality.

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arahobob
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Re: New Model?

Postby arahobob » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:10 pm

Toptube wrote:Many strangely presumptuous comments in here.

What IS a good name for a guitar? And why are those names better than any Kiesel name?


I was a bit tough on the name Zeus. It just struck me as dopey. Still does.
The only possible way it could be worse would be to put a "Z'" inlay on the 12th fret.
Most other kiesel model names are more neutral to me, even if I don't dig them.

If the name was my only issue with the model, I'd have no problem ordering one.
It's just a name.
It's ok though, you can't please everyone.

ZEUS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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2016 Black n Blue VSEVEN
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Some sort of multiscale 6 HSS with RAD ASH
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Re: New Model?

Postby dbone » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:31 pm

Well Zeus does make me a little curious about Hades, Aphrodite, and Poseidon...
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Re: New Model?

Postby Omsong » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:28 pm

I suspect that Kiesel attracts more than their fair share of perfectionists by the very nature of their business model which enables customization to an extreme extent. That's one of the main reasons why we are buying Kiesels rather than some 'off the shelf' brand. Kiesel gives we perfectionists the chance to build the near perfect guitar to suit our particular desires. Notice, I said 'near'. It is, however, the unfortunate nature of the perfectionist to never be satisfied, no matter how great or 'near' perfect something is. We can always, and most certainly will, find a flaw or fault to fret over and complain about. Our other flaw (gee, only two?) is that we 'know' that we could have done it better if given the opportunity.

So my hat goes off to Kiesel & crew for giving us an awesome range of instruments (even if they aren't perfect). What other company builds a Fatboy, a Vadar or a Crescent, and now a Zeus - each one unique in the guitar industry.
Ichi on Jobutsu (Enlightenment in one tone.)

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Re: New Model?

Postby amon » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:06 am

dbone wrote:Well Zeus does make me a little curious about Hades, Aphrodite, and Poseidon...

I was thinking a series of Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles and Mercury.

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Re: New Model?

Postby Toptube » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 am

Putting very little brainpower into thinking about it: Jeff generally stops a naming theme after two models. I don't think we'll be seeing the entire Pantheon :wink:

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Re: New Model?

Postby skully13a » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:37 am

Toptube wrote:Putting very little brainpower into thinking about it: Jeff generally stops a naming theme after two models. I don't think we'll be seeing the entire Pantheon :wink:


Just when I was getting ready for a "Prometheus", too. Ah, well. :ninja:
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