Hard Cases

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spudmunkey
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:56 pm

What I do fear, is that over time, by only feeding their lions...is they they will only have lions left. And not everyone wants a lion. And before too long, only people who want lions will even be aware of them as a company.

OK...perhaps a bad analogy. But...let's say McDonalds discontinued everything except the Big Mac, their best-seller for the sake of this metaphor. While it's their best seller, you'll only get people to even look at your offering if they wanted a Big Mac. Instead of having a broader selection of items to draw people in, while some of those might sell slower, they are also bringing on more eyes who might actually end up buying the Big Mac anyways.

OK, this time without an analogy: Right now, they do have instruments for almost every player...and because of this, they get a lot of eyes. And many of those eyes who *thought* they wanted a DC127 might actually end up buying a Vader, Zeus or Aries. But, if after continually culling the heard (damnit...sorry for that analogy...it just slipped in), all they have left are the Vader, Zeus and Aries, well then they'll have a whole lot less people even bothering to check them out in the first place, because they think they want a Bolt, or a DC127, or a SH550, etc.
[/ :soapbox:]

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texastoast
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby texastoast » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:31 pm

I could not agree more.
The thing that keeps sticking in my craw is the separation video Jeff and Mark did years back. Where Mark says "rest assured" Carvin models and the company we know will still be there.
I understand that things change. From my tainted view it looks like a purposeful removal of all things Carvin. Including some major options.The hard case is not the biggest deal. It is a small straw among many on the camels back. To me hard and soft is like having diet and regular soda. Might as well offer both if you are going to offer any.

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skully13a
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby skully13a » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:01 pm

texastoast wrote:I could not agree more.
The thing that keeps sticking in my craw is the separation video Jeff and Mark did years back. Where Mark says "rest assured" Carvin models and the company we know will still be there.
I understand that things change. From my tainted view it looks like a purposeful removal of all things Carvin. Including some major options.The hard case is not the biggest deal. It is a small straw among many on the camels back. To me hard and soft is like having diet and regular soda. Might as well offer both if you are going to offer any.

I can dig it. There are many straws. As always.
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gumbynotpokey
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby gumbynotpokey » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:52 am

ghostryder wrote:Sure but your main selling point is 'custom'. You can't always look at it through the eyes of a k-mart executive--which BTW looking at just the numbers like that is why k-mart is almost bye bye blue light specials or not. I don't imagine kiesel sells a whole lot of 7th grade tops that cost $1200 either...but they ain't tossing that baby out with the bathwater. If i'm north of 4k on a build , or even 2k--there's just something inherently wrong with just having a gig bag as an option. Maybe the bad quality of those hard cases is why they don't sell either. At $100 a pop you do expect them to fit the quitar nicely.

So rather than looking at it like a bean counter look at it as an artist. Offer up something better. Offer up something no one else does even, on the same level as the guitar that goes in them.


Please know this - I do not agree with my own statement; I was merely posting what I think their thinking is.
:)
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby gumbynotpokey » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:56 am

spudmunkey wrote:What I do fear, is that over time, by only feeding their lions...is they they will only have lions left. And not everyone wants a lion. And before too long, only people who want lions will even be aware of them as a company.

OK...perhaps a bad analogy. But...let's say McDonalds discontinued everything except the Big Mac, their best-seller for the sake of this metaphor. While it's their best seller, you'll only get people to even look at your offering if they wanted a Big Mac. Instead of having a broader selection of items to draw people in, while some of those might sell slower, they are also bringing on more eyes who might actually end up buying the Big Mac anyways.

OK, this time without an analogy: Right now, they do have instruments for almost every player...and because of this, they get a lot of eyes. And many of those eyes who *thought* they wanted a DC127 might actually end up buying a Vader, Zeus or Aries. But, if after continually culling the heard (damnit...sorry for that analogy...it just slipped in), all they have left are the Vader, Zeus and Aries, well then they'll have a whole lot less people even bothering to check them out in the first place, because they think they want a Bolt, or a DC127, or a SH550, etc.
[/ :soapbox:]


yep

I can tell you this - 3 full body acoustics, 2 SH's, a DC and a Claro-topped fretless were not what brought me to Carvin. It was their paper catalog and my desire for the best quality solid body fretted bass at the best price (cost/quality ratio) that I could find the USA market. Period.

What you feed thrives, and what you starve dies.
Wife: C350, Claro top SH550, Vintage 16
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby gumbynotpokey » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:04 am

The first order slip that says:

*Option 50: Customer-supplied hard case"

will be funny.
Wife: C350, Claro top SH550, Vintage 16
Oldest: DC400M greenburst, C980TMW
Youngest: C750, GK1, CT624M Deep Black Cherry on flame, V3MC Celestion,
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spudmunkey
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby spudmunkey » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:12 am

gumbynotpokey wrote:The first order slip that says:

*Option 50: Customer-supplied hard case"

will be funny.


Honestly, I feel like that would have been the case even before now. They have said that they actually do experience more damage in the hard cases than the soft cases when shipping, so if a customer sends in their own case that Kiesel knows nothing about, they are putting all of the liability on someone else, since it's not something they can control. In a way, I would actually understand that way more than some other OP50s.

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby gumbynotpokey » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:51 am

spudmunkey wrote:
gumbynotpokey wrote:The first order slip that says:

*Option 50: Customer-supplied hard case"

will be funny.


Honestly, I feel like that would have been the case even before now.


:applause: wow :applause:
Wife: C350, Claro top SH550, Vintage 16
Oldest: DC400M greenburst, C980TMW
Youngest: C750, GK1, CT624M Deep Black Cherry on flame, V3MC Celestion,
SH550 white/white, black binding, gold hardware
Me: LB70P jet black, LB70PF Claro BEM HAN, MB 10

Tony PD
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby Tony PD » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:58 am

Sorry, I am firmly in the hard case camp. I don't care how great and light weight gig bags are. They're still gig bags. Call me old-fashioned, but a high end guitar comes in a hard case, and a low end guitar comes in a gig bag. Charge more for a hard case if you have to, or maybe get better fitting ones, but don't just do away with them. I prefer the option of either a hard or soft case (for those that prefer them), but I personally prefer a hard case.
Last edited by Tony PD on Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby ghostryder » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:14 pm

spudmunkey wrote:What I do fear, is that over time, by only feeding their lions...is they they will only have lions left. And not everyone wants a lion. And before too long, only people who want lions will even be aware of them as a company.

OK...perhaps a bad analogy. But...let's say McDonalds discontinued everything except the Big Mac, their best-seller for the sake of this metaphor. While it's their best seller, you'll only get people to even look at your offering if they wanted a Big Mac. Instead of having a broader selection of items to draw people in, while some of those might sell slower, they are also bringing on more eyes who might actually end up buying the Big Mac anyways.

OK, this time without an analogy: Right now, they do have instruments for almost every player...and because of this, they get a lot of eyes. And many of those eyes who *thought* they wanted a DC127 might actually end up buying a Vader, Zeus or Aries. But, if after continually culling the heard (damnit...sorry for that analogy...it just slipped in), all they have left are the Vader, Zeus and Aries, well then they'll have a whole lot less people even bothering to check them out in the first place, because they think they want a Bolt, or a DC127, or a SH550, etc.
[/ :soapbox:]


Excellent point. for myself it was always the classic designs in the catalogs along with my wish list of Carvin Amps and PAs. Coming back to the site sometime later and seeing headless this and bevel that really was off putting. When the contour and bolt+ went it really almost drove me away. it really was this community through posts that even had me concidering any of the new offerings. But on the surface without that interaction I'd say I'd have sailed right over to another brand.
In the end I could see me specking an aries. certainly without the 'spiders from mars' bevels, a little BVE and a nice top and the thing would look a lot like suhr modern.
But it did take the community to get me there. it certainly wasn't anything Keisel was doing as far as presentation or ads or anything.
It's like when a new supermaket opens up in your area. when you visit your looking at the whole store. not just the bacon in the meat department, and if the thing looks like it's geared to hillbilly's with wild chickens running around I may just turn and go out the exit. (nothing against hillbillys in this example).
Going on the keisel site is about the same shock. It's bevel and headless shredderville. You have to literally dig to find anything else and how many don't bother?.
look if the machine only holds so many programs i think it's high time to upgrade the machine to be honest. Your in my domain now and i absolutely know industrial configuration languages have extreme low overhead. They are not C++ libraries requiring tons of memory but rather something like LUA that'll run with minimal headroom. You should be able to have thousands upon thousands of configuration programs. A lot of what's being shovel'ed as 'reasons for' hold very little mustard for me.

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby ZooHead » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:35 pm

Tony PD wrote:Sorry, I am firmly in the hard case camp. I don't case how great and light weight gig bags are. They're still gig bags. Call me old-fashioned, but a high end guitar comes in a hard case, and a low end guitar comes in a gig bag. Charge more for a hard case if you have to, or maybe get better fitting ones, but don't just do away with them. I prefer the option of either a hard or soft case (for those that prefer them), but I personally prefer a hard case.

I agree, In the old days all guitars came with hard cases. But when the Parker Fly came out it was
the first high end guitar that came with a soft case, I guess so the price wouldn't be to high.

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby 2Plus2isChicken » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:17 pm

I wouldn't refer to the soft case as a "gig bag", either. A gig bag is the cheap throwaway thing you get with low end guitars that offers no protection at all. This soft case is probably more protective than some hard cases. I wouldn't toss it around or throw it in an airplane storage bay or sit my 4x12 on it, but I also wouldn't do that with any case that wasn't a flight case, and probably would treat it as gently as possible even with one of those.

Non-flight case hardshell cases might as well be gig bags with some of the abuse guitars can go through on tour.
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby Doctor Turn » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:42 pm

2Plus2isChicken wrote:I don't want to have a case that locks. What is the point?


Ehhhh? There are musicians who do hard traveling on the road, some are well known players, or known enough that they have fans, and handlers who would love to take a secret strum on a player's guitar. There are some shippers who just can't keep their hands off of interesting items that they ship. Last week I was watching one of those stupid "Public Fails And Freakouts" compilations, and one was from this guy chasing a panicked UPS driver who dropped a completely opened box of clothes, all of which had been obviously opened and tried on by the UPS guy. The dude was home, and waiting for his shipment, and the dude just tiptoed to his door and dropped this ragged untaped box in his porch and almost ran back to his truck. The customer sprinted out with his cameraphone on and got this humiliated man on camera, shaking in his boots embarassed for what he had done to this guys goods.

Keith Richards once got decked by Chuck Berry just for taking an unauthorized strum on his axe. People take their axes very seriously when they're out on the road, bro.
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Re: Hard Cases

Postby DesmoBob » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:03 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:Keith Richards once got decked by Chuck Berry just for taking an unauthorized strum on his axe. People take their axes very seriously when they're out on the road, bro.

Hahah I had to look this up after reading this. Found video of him telling this and other stories. He's quite a funny guy, I never knew. :lol:

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby 2Plus2isChicken » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:34 am

Even though that story is kind of funny I also don't think that was one of Chuck Berry's finest moments. I don't consider my guitars important enough to punch someone over (in fact, there isn't much I can think of that warrants that response other than actual physical assault), and having to fiddle around with a key isn't something I enjoy doing when the only thing between my guitar and any thief is a box they could easily break the latch on. If they really want the guitar they'll get it.
Guitars:
2x Carvin Bolt
DC145
AE185
Ibanez RG1570 and Mikro
2x Fender MIM Strat
Ovation Celebrity
PRS SE Custom 24

Amps:
V3M
Legacy 3
VT16
Quilter 101 Mini Head
Peavey JSX Head
Fender Super Champ XD
Carvin Vintage 1 x 12 cab
Carvin Legacy II 2 x 12 cab

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby Doctor Turn » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:01 pm

Well, nobody is advocating physical assault. You asked what the point of having a lock on your guitar is, and there are areas between out and out theft and not touching the guitar at all when in transit that the guitar could be subject to. You might just as well ask--what's the point of being able to secure any valuable whatsoever?

When a guitarist finds a guitar he prizes above all others after playing thru so many "meh"'s, that numero uno becomes very important. I'm not asking you to take on the mindset of any of these touring musicians who earn their livelihood and onstage reputation and persona via their chosen instrument... I merely passed along a reason or two that a person could want a lock on their case, because you asked why a person would want a lock on their case in the first place. You don't need to think like them, as your life is understandably different... just understand night after night, week after week on the road in transit, the safety of ol reliable is very important.

I saw a rig rundown with Brian May who's managed to keep ol Red in his mitts after all these years. I'm sure he wants that sucker locked up!
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby X1Glider » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:33 pm

spudmunkey wrote:
ToneWood wrote:I can see a LOT of musicians who have the need for hard cases and prefer that a guitar comes with one.

I'm in the camp of: if I feel the need for a hard case, I would rather get a more durable option than the G&G they've been using for years, and is ubiquitous in the industry. An ill-fitting hard case is in my mind just as "bad" as a low-quality soft case. .

Agreed. I say the same thing about ill-fitting $800 motorcycle helmets. It will not protect well if it doesn't fit properly. Yet people will buy an Arai or Shoei even if it doesn't fit their head shape. As such, I'd been using HJC and Scorpions in recent years because they do fit me properly.

Same with guitar cases. My 80s Carvins have the best fitting hard cases because they are form fitted to the body. Even my 90s Carvins with SKBs don't cradle as snugly.

I still have all my Carvin branded hardshells in a closet but I upgraded them all to hardshells with o-ring gaskets since they need to leave the house rain or shine and also may suffer a alcoholic beverage disaster. I hand cut the foam to form fit and covered the foam with the typical interior fabric.

I have no need for a soft case and would just sell it off immediately. Waste of money for me.

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby Casual Madman » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:53 pm

Is anyone here besides me old enough (and Carvin fan long enough) to remember when Calzone flight cases were an option with your guitar purchase? The cost about twice the standard case price, but were sturdy as an... Anvil.

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby Naked Ape » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:59 pm

X1Glider wrote:Agreed. I say the same thing about ill-fitting $800 motorcycle helmets. It will not protect well if it doesn't fit properly. Yet people will buy an Arai or Shoei even if it doesn't fit their head shape. As such, I'd been using HJC and Scorpions in recent years because they do fit me properly.

:hijack:
Your analogy might go right over peoples heads. :lol: :roll:
Sorry. :oops:
I wore Shoei's for years, then they went to a more 'round head' shape.
Been Arai's ever since, with their 'Round/Oval' shape. Perfect!!
Getting ready for another new one. Sucks that it will cost almost as much as a really nice guitar. If only they retained some resale value. Just wall hangers once retired. :wall:

********** Back to Hardshell cases ***********

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Re: Hard Cases

Postby DesmoBob » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:14 pm

Naked Ape wrote:
X1Glider wrote:Agreed. I say the same thing about ill-fitting $800 motorcycle helmets. It will not protect well if it doesn't fit properly. Yet people will buy an Arai or Shoei even if it doesn't fit their head shape. As such, I'd been using HJC and Scorpions in recent years because they do fit me properly.

:hijack:
Your analogy might go right over peoples heads. :lol: :roll:
Sorry. :oops:
I wore Shoei's for years, then they went to a more 'round head' shape.
Been Arai's ever since, with their 'Round/Oval' shape. Perfect!!
Getting ready for another new one. Sucks that it will cost almost as much as a really nice guitar. If only they retained some resale value. Just wall hangers once retired. :wall:

********** Back to Hardshell cases ***********

Same here. Former Shoei, now Arai.
BTW, I am literally still breathing today because my previous Arai did its job.


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