Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

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Alcathous
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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby Alcathous » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:13 am

I don't know why a barre on a fanned fret would be more ergonomical. To me my wrist would be in a more relaxed natural position if I can barre angled the other way around. I have to push my elbow into my ribs so I can straighten out my wrist to barre the way you have to on a fanned fret. Keeping my elbow normal, there is no way I can rotate my wrist any further to follow the fan. I'd much much rather barre with my fingers pointing towards me rather than away from me.

Yeah, I play with the neck near horizontal. But the nut vertical? Without multiscale that means your neck points straight up. With the multiscale angle removed from that, it means you play with your neck almost pointing straight up? I can see that you can offset the angle of the frets compared to your barre finger, but the way you describe it sounds a bit extreme. Does anyone actually play with their neck 45 degrees up or more? I mean, you can do it for a bit to show off, but in general?

And I always hear the fanning is really minor. If so, how can it matter that much? If the fanning is subtle, any advantage will also be subtle. Either way, it will make some chord voicing harder, others easier.

I don't know why you say a Zeus doesn't look good 6 string, but does 7 or more or multiscale. I guess it is an issue of dimensions? I can kind of see your point about the fatness of the lack of a cut balancing out a fatter neck. Especially when compared to body shapes that seem to work aesthetically with a slim neck. When that becomes a 8 string, you suddenly have a big fat neck in a body type that used to be streamlined. I guess that is what you mean?

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby HarlowTheFish » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:43 am

Alcathous wrote:I don't know why a barre on a fanned fret would be more ergonomical. To me my wrist would be in a more relaxed natural position if I can barre angled the other way around. I have to push my elbow into my ribs so I can straighten out my wrist to barre the way you have to on a fanned fret. Keeping my elbow normal, there is no way I can rotate my wrist any further to follow the fan. I'd much much rather barre with my fingers pointing towards me rather than away from me.

Yeah, I play with the neck near horizontal. But the nut vertical? Without multiscale that means your neck points straight up. With the multiscale angle removed from that, it means you play with your neck almost pointing straight up? I can see that you can offset the angle of the frets compared to your barre finger, but the way you describe it sounds a bit extreme. Does anyone actually play with their neck 45 degrees up or more? I mean, you can do it for a bit to show off, but in general?

And I always hear the fanning is really minor. If so, how can it matter that much? If the fanning is subtle, any advantage will also be subtle. Either way, it will make some chord voicing harder, others easier.

I don't know why you say a Zeus doesn't look good 6 string, but does 7 or more or multiscale. I guess it is an issue of dimensions? I can kind of see your point about the fatness of the lack of a cut balancing out a fatter neck. Especially when compared to body shapes that seem to work aesthetically with a slim neck. When that becomes a 8 string, you suddenly have a big fat neck in a body type that used to be streamlined. I guess that is what you mean?


With nut vertical on a non-fanned guitar, the neck is fully horizontal. With fanned frets, it's like 45 degrees, which I picked up from playing classical guitar. Keeping your elbow by your ribs means your shoulder is more relaxed, and I hold my guitar so that around the 5-12 frets (where I spend most of my time) my arm is at my side and my elbow is basically pointing about 10ish degrees away from me, and about 10-20 degrees up. I like playing really stretchy inversions, so I need my thumb planted firmly on the back of the neck and as little hand strain as possible because I've had wrist/hand issues in the past.

Basically, the upper horn of my guitar is about an inch below the end of my breastbone, with the nut at about the bottom of my shoulder in height. This way, holding my hand at the most natural position, straight up (like pointing at the ceiling) the fanned frets near the nut don't make me twist my wrist inwards. Then as I move up the fretboard, my wrist also angles as my elbow arcs, and the fan tracks that pretty accurately for my preferred playing position. Maybe I'm weird, though. The fanning is minor, but it's about 13 degrees from perpendicular at the nut. On something like an Ormsby, with a 2" fan, however, the angle is crazy and all your complaints about tradeoffs apply, whereas the Kiesel 1" fan is large enough (and most importantly laid out well enough, compared to a Strandberg) to give you the ergo benefits, but short enough for the drawbacks to not mess with normal playing.

*gets off soapbox*

With regards to the Zeus looking weird, it's because I think the body is to wide for the skinny 6-string neck and the fan makes it have a different visual balance. With a 7 or 8, the body is the same width, but the neck is wider, so it looks like a small-bodied ERG like a Strandy or something, whereas on a 6 it looks like a melted battleaxe. The fan sort of adds some context to the lines of the design that it's otherwise missing that aren't needed with more strings. Am I making sense? I honestly can't tell anymore.

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby Alcathous » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:35 pm

Looks more like 20 degrees. At 45 degrees the nut is halfway in between horizontal and vertical. Surely that cannot be what you mean.

Maybe you mean you angle the way you hold your guitar by 12 to 20 degrees, the angle of the fanning, to correct for the fanning?

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby HarlowTheFish » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:20 pm

Alcathous wrote:Looks more like 20 degrees. At 45 degrees the nut is halfway in between horizontal and vertical. Surely that cannot be what you mean.

Maybe you mean you angle the way you hold your guitar by 12 to 20 degrees, the angle of the fanning, to correct for the fanning?

Oh no the nut is like 13 degrees from perpendicular to the centerline. When I have the guitar on a strap, said centerline is 45 degrees up, assuming the ground is 0 and a straight line up is 90 degrees. Excuse my 5-year-old-level Paint skills:
whydoidothis.png

Kinda like this? A little higher or lower depending on where on the neck I'm playing.

When I say with the nut vertical, I mean that on a fan-fret guitar being held like this, the nut is pointing straight down, whereas on a straight scale, it's vertical when the neck is horizontal.
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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby spudmunkey » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:44 pm

Something something vertical nut, something my wife, something something a doctor!

:laughhard:

[/nothing useful to see here, move along]

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby HarlowTheFish » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:06 pm

spudmunkey wrote:Something something vertical nut, something my wife, something something a doctor!

:laughhard:

[/nothing useful to see here, move along]

Ooh, kinky :laughhard:

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby Cynical » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:48 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... u8YIk0aTCw

First demo I've seen on the Thoriums, with a nice A/B comparison to the Lithiums. Judging from this, I suspect the Thoriums are going to fix a lot of what people don't like about the Lithiums...

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby katerlouis » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:38 am

Holyschamoly, what on earth happened here? :D
Thank you so much for this and sorry for the delay guys! (the money for this beast has to come from somewhere, right? :D)

@spudmunkey:
daaang what's your role in the kiesel family? How do you know all these things?

@harlowthefish:
what do you mean by "the neck in parallel" – a quick and dirty google compared it to sparkly, more nasle sound?

@all:
What is a super switch?

multiscale:
since straight fret at 0 is not an option
I go without a multiscale.

bridge:
gold metallic sounds promising for my first draft color scheme :)
Any chance you have an example pic for this?

gold bridge:
Look at this! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqiGB8MUEAAJolj.jpg – he got a gold bridge AND a gold "head"

scale-length:
Didn't think about the additional tension coming fromt he distance between nut and tuner!
How much is the difference though? Is 25,5'' on a Zeus similar in tension to my 24'' Ibanez Art 120? (LP style)

What is 25.5'' _flat_?

KSE pickups:
you say I could have any coil combination with the voice 3. But my googling results the 'standard' KSE wiring lookes like this:
voice 1: tone knob pushed in
voice 2: tone knob pulled out
voice 3: volume knob pulled out (which overwrites whatever is set on the tone knob!!!)
I don't see the option to split any of the voicings. Or did I just got something wrong?
How would Kiesel normally wire this?

9-volt-battery
How many hours of playing do they last?
isn't there a recharchable option? In my Ibanez Art I can plug in simple AA batteries– just bougth recharchable ones, bam.

multiscale chord inversions:
I wonder: how can these shapes be more comfortable, when the scale length on the low E goes more to a bariton guitar? I would understand your argument if the fan would be 24''-25''

wood:
The wood thing is still really hard for me. To get a better feel for how things might look, I tried to replicate the guitar in Illustrator. A darker mahagony compliments the teal quite well. What do you say?
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bmg7BEIAf76/ – what is B here?

HIGH-RES verision
Render1.jpg

HIGH-RES verision

fretboard:
I generally agree that the zeus with this top is fancy enough and the fretboard should be real dark to fit the pickups and the brdige better. But .. imagine a "perfectly fitting" ebony fretboard, where is only one clear difference in color, where the dark one is almost black and the bright one fits the mahogany. :O – Where the brighter one part covers just 25% of the board. Uuuh.
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitargal ... allery.jpg

finish:
the example which made me fall in love with transluscent teal apparently has a slight black burst on the outside.
I imagine how that would look on the Zeus? Should it be all around? Or just on the part that touches the maghogany? Or vice versa? Pheeew.

electronics-cover:
I don't like the plastic in the back. The website builder only lists 3 wood types (ebony, zebrawood, purpleheart)
How much would it be to fit that exactly with the mahogany part they cut out?

price confusion:
Why is a maple neck and mahogany body combo +600$,
whereas a mahogany neck and body is only +100$? (data from website builder)

"They'll work as closely with you as you pay them to" – How much are we talking here?

Honestly, .. I'm a lil bit nervous to call the guys! Just look at how much text we 3 produced in this thread already :D – I'm afraid I'll bother them with my maaaybe a bit over-the-top love in details.
Or do they charge the phone-time aswell?
Not meant in any bad way, just want to what to expect.


THANNNNKS SOOO MUCH!
WE WE CLOOOOSE :)

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby spudmunkey » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:57 am

katerlouis wrote:@spudmunkey:
daaang what's your role in the kiesel family? How do you know all these things?


Court jester, village idiot understudy.


katerlouis wrote:@all:
What is a super switch?


It's a special blade switch that has additional connection points to allow for more combinations than a "standard" switch can achieve. Think of it like a bike with 21 speeds vs 5 speeds. I don't know if "Super switch" is actual model name like Velcro or Scotch Tape, or if it's a general term with different manufacturers and options...but the base line is that it's more flexible than a standard 5-way switch, which is limited in what it can do.

katerlouis wrote:bridge:
gold metallic sounds promising for my first draft color scheme :)
Any chance you have an example pic for this?

gold bridge:
Look at this! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqiGB8MUEAAJolj.jpg – he got a gold bridge AND a gold "head"


That's the one. They send the bridge out to get powdercoated (a durable paint). So its not glossy polished gold plating like what you'd typically find on a guitar...it's more like a metallic paint.

katerlouis wrote:scale-length:
Didn't think about the additional tension coming from the distance between nut and tuner!
How much is the difference though? Is 25,5'' on a Zeus similar in tension to my 24'' Ibanez Art 120? (LP style)


Is it really 24" or is it more like a Les Paul's 24.5-24.75-ish?

katerlouis wrote:KSE pickups:
you say I could have any coil combination with the voice 3. But my googling results the 'standard' KSE wiring lookes like this:
voice 1: tone knob pushed in
voice 2: tone knob pulled out
voice 3: volume knob pulled out (which overwrites whatever is set on the tone knob!!!)
I don't see the option to split any of the voicings. Or did I just got something wrong?
How would Kiesel normally wire this?


As it is, Kiesel already doesn't include the coil tap control with their standard Fluence Modern install from what I understand. They do the 2 voices, but there's another control they don't install...but I don't know why. I only know that i've heard people ask about it. I personally don't know enough about the Fluence pickups to know the differences between them, and just learned that something i had thought about them was incorrect: i thought they *all* had coil split functionality, but it's only some. And in the case of the KSE, the 3rd voice is a split coil voice anyway...so, yeah...I'm gonna have to differ to others on those.

katerlouis wrote:9-volt-battery
How many hours of playing do they last?
isn't there a recharchable option? In my Ibanez Art I can plug in simple AA batteries– just bougth recharchable ones, bam.


Fishman says "days of play time". Fishman does offer a USB-charged battery, but kiesel decided that they would rather have a guitar that can be instantly charged to 100% with a battery swap, rather than having to charge it (even if it's only for a few minutes to get a couple hours of charge). For me, not knowing if replacement compatible batteries would be available, should you need one in a decade, is a little bit of a turn off...but I'm an old-schooler who still wishes cell phones had hot-swappable batteries... My electric lawnmower's replacement battery costs more than a new lawnmower would cost. The old NiCad rechargeable batteries I had for my drill, weed whacker and hedge trimmer were all dead after just a few years, and replacements are no longer available at my local stores, so I was having to order knock-offs on eBay. I've since bought a few Ryobi tools to replace those, and theyhave continued to make batteries that fit tools they made 19-20 years ago. It's the sole reason I bought some of their stuff. Ha!

I don't know enough about them, but i know there are rechargeable 9v batteries out there:
https://www.ebay.com/p/4x-EBL-600mah-9v ... 804&chn=ps


katerlouis wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/Bmg7BEIAf76/ – what is B here?


Birdseye maple, with their KTB (Kiesel Treated Board), and that color is called "baked". Note that the color is ONLY applied to the face of the fretboard, not the edges (like where the dots are).


katerlouis wrote:electronics-cover:
I don't like the plastic in the back. The website builder only lists 3 wood types (ebony, zebrawood, purpleheart)
How much would it be to fit that exactly with the mahogany part they cut out?


Mahogany might not be hard/strong enough to survive as a control cavity cover, with as thin as they are. As you see, the only options they offer as standard are fretboard woods, which are incredibly hard/heavy/dense.

Over on the Facebook group, there's someone who makes custom wood covers. I believe his name's Bob. People seem to be very happy with them when they get then, but I have no information on long-term durability. He seems to be open using many more woods, and cost seems reasonable, from what I understand. I *think* he's Bob'sCustomPlates on etsy.

katerlouis wrote:price confusion:
Why is a maple neck and mahogany body combo +600$,
whereas a mahogany neck and body is only +100$? (data from website builder)


Why is it? Because it isn't. You're reading the wrong line. It's only $50. The $600 price is an all-koa body and neck. ;)

katerlouis wrote:"They'll work as closely with you as you pay them to" – How much are we talking here?


Basically, you can pay a little bit (like $50 or $100 i think) to have them go through their piles of wood to pick a piece they think best matches what you're looking for. You have no direct say, and you won't see it until you receive the completed guitar.

There's also some live videos where he has one or two specific pieces of wood you can buy at a discount. This is the cheapest way to see the actual piece of wood your guitar will be made from, but it doesn't happen all the time, and if you wait for one specific species, you might be waiting a while...and when it does come up, it might not even be what you like.

Go up to a Kiesel Edition, and you get progress pics of your build, and I *THINK* you get some say, but not full control. I believe those builds start at something like $4k, but come with a 5-piece body, 5 piece neck, 5 piece headstock (if your model has one), and I think some other upgrades as well.

Finally, there's the "Kiesel Experience". You travel to the factory, and you seem to get some actual hand-on with the woods in person, and select specific pieces. I don't know what that process actually looks like (maybe he pics 3 and you pick one, or what...no idea). I don't recall what that starts at, but you automatically have to add your travel to Escondido into your budget. Ha!


katerlouis wrote:Or do they charge the phone-time aswell?


The first minute is only 99 cents ($19.99 each aditional minute). I'm kidding.

Don't be affraid to call, and say, "i am a bit overwhelmed by the options, but here's what I'm trying to achieve. What do you recommend/suggest?"

katerlouis wrote:WE WE CLOOOOSE :)

giphy-1.gif


Close to what? Ordering your guitar? ha ha ha ha...hey guys! This guy thinks obsessing over specs is over once you've ordered the guitar!
Image
Last edited by spudmunkey on Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HarlowTheFish
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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby HarlowTheFish » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:35 am

katerlouis wrote:@harlowthefish:
what do you mean by "the neck in parallel" – a quick and dirty google compared it to sparkly, more nasle sound?


Yeah, pretty much. I find a lot of pickups sound kinda thin when split on their own, and get harsh with a bit of dirt. Parallel is more P-90 than Fender, a little more midrange, a little more output, and a little less treble. I find it tends to work better when you want one pickup with a more single-coily sound. When you're splitting the bridge and neck together, or either one with a middle single coil, it's the same kinda thing: sounds nicer with more coils on, but still the character you want.

@all:
What is a super switch?


Spud nailed it. Schaller does a bunch of different configurations for all needs, and you can get the Ibanez ones from RIch at Ibanez Rules if you want their wiring setup.

multiscale:
since straight fret at 0 is not an option
I go without a multiscale.


That's fair. If you're thinking of something like an Ibanez, Jackson, or Ormsby fan, it's nothing crazy like that. If you've played a 7-string Strandberg, it's reminiscent of the first 6 strings on one of those.

bridge:
gold metallic sounds promising for my first draft color scheme :)
Any chance you have an example pic for this?


https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitargallery/om6
Second one down.

gold bridge:
Look at this! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqiGB8MUEAAJolj.jpg – he got a gold bridge AND a gold "head"


Yeah Chris Letchford got the Gold Digger. You could get one like this about a year and a half back, but it was a $3k option package. This is Hipshot's gold plating, the one they do now I think looks nicer.

scale-length:
Didn't think about the additional tension coming fromt he distance between nut and tuner!
How much is the difference though? Is 25,5'' on a Zeus similar in tension to my 24'' Ibanez Art 120? (LP style)

What is 25.5'' _flat_?


Flat, as in "just this", as opposed to fanned. Dunno where I picked this up from, but I keep confusing people with it.

KSE pickups:
you say I could have any coil combination with the voice 3. But my googling results the 'standard' KSE wiring lookes like this:
voice 1: tone knob pushed in
voice 2: tone knob pulled out
voice 3: volume knob pulled out (which overwrites whatever is set on the tone knob!!!)
I don't see the option to split any of the voicings. Or did I just got something wrong?
How would Kiesel normally wire this?


The way the Fishman pickups work is they have one output, but a bunch of little tabs under them. Each one you run to ground with your guitar's switching does something, from coil splits (Fishman calls it a tap, because their coils are wound in one go, but it is for all intents and purposes a split) to voice changes, to HF Tilt (simulates a long cable, cuts some high treble), to dropping the output by ~6db. I recommend looking at the diagram for the Tosin Abasi set instead, it's more like what you're looking for.

9-volt-battery
How many hours of playing do they last?
isn't there a recharchable option? In my Ibanez Art I can plug in simple AA batteries– just bougth recharchable ones, bam.


Umm, with the Fluence set you get about 200-300 hours, I think, per 9-volt. With the rechargeable pack they make you get a little less, but Kiesel doesn't work with those, I don't think.

multiscale chord inversions:
I wonder: how can these shapes be more comfortable, when the scale length on the low E goes more to a bariton guitar? I would understand your argument if the fan would be 24''-25''


If you look at chords like this:
---- | ----
---- | ---4
---- | ---3
---7 |----
---9 |---5
--10 |---5
On a straight scale, I find this either a strech if I have my fingers parallel to the frets, but it gets cramped if I try to angle my wrist to compensate. On the Kiesel fan, the scale length is longer, but the shift in finger positions accommodates my choice of chords better. Your mileage may and will vary, but I highly recommend trying one (like I said, the 7-string Strandbergs have a similarly-angled fan) before deciding.

wood:
The wood thing is still really hard for me. To get a better feel for how things might look, I tried to replicate the guitar in Illustrator. A darker mahagony compliments the teal quite well. What do you say?
HIGH-RES verision
Render1.jpg
HIGH-RES verision


Please sir can I have another?

fretboard:
I generally agree that the zeus with this top is fancy enough and the fretboard should be real dark to fit the pickups and the brdige better. But .. imagine a "perfectly fitting" ebony fretboard, where is only one clear difference in color, where the dark one is almost black and the bright one fits the mahogany. :O – Where the brighter one part covers just 25% of the board. Uuuh.
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitargal ... allery.jpg


That's kinda what I was thinking. I'll try to get a picture of my CL6's fretboard, it's dark but with really nice subtle grain lines.

finish:
the example which made me fall in love with transluscent teal apparently has a slight black burst on the outside.
I imagine how that would look on the Zeus? Should it be all around? Or just on the part that touches the maghogany? Or vice versa? Pheeew.


You can get a 3-piece body that adds a thin darker veneer between the top and back of the body that I think would frame the teal really well. I'm not big on blackbursts, so I'm gonna defer that to others, but the first guitar here has a 3-piece body:
https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitargallery/o6

electronics-cover:
I don't like the plastic in the back. The website builder only lists 3 wood types (ebony, zebrawood, purpleheart)
How much would it be to fit that exactly with the mahogany part they cut out?


They don't actually cut out the mahogany, it's CNC'd, so it gets routed out. You can get someone to make one for you, but because the cavity cover is so thin, I recommend getting one to match your fretboard instead, as fretboard woods are harder.

"They'll work as closely with you as you pay them to" – How much are we talking here?


From $50 for a streaky bit of limba of their choice to base price +$3k for a Kiesel Edition, or base + like $5-6k (I think, don't quote me, I've just seen this thrown around a couple of times) for going to the factory and picking your wood. Again, it's all about how much you're willing to pay.

Honestly, .. I'm a lil bit nervous to call the guys! Just look at how much text we 3 produced in this thread already :D – I'm afraid I'll bother them with my maaaybe a bit over-the-top love in details.
Or do they charge the phone-time aswell?
Not meant in any bad way, just want to what to expect.

When you call, ask for Chris, tell him what you're looking for, what you think will get you there, and how much you're willing to spend. He's a super chill guy and was really helpful in getting my order in, even though I was shaking with nerves when I called.


THANNNNKS SOOO MUCH!
WE WE CLOOOOSE :)

giphy-1.gif

[/quote]

BAHAHAHAHAA LOOK AT THIS GUY THINKING HE'S CLOSE TO DONE HAHAHAHAHA

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby katerlouis » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:31 am

HarlowTheFish wrote:Please sir can I have another?

What do you mean, Mister?

3-piece-body:
Phew, really hard to say, but I guess just a black line is a lil meeh–, maybe there is no need for a 3-piece-body, when they could do a similar "binding-effect" to the zeus as seen in here: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl8tEuyATzx
To me it looks like the brown part is still the burled maple top but just colored brown instead of transluscent teal?
The Zeus also has a curved part on the top-wood. But it's quite more top that would be brown then. Hard to imagine how this would look. Dang.

chambering:
Does it make sense to get the chambered option when I already have the battery slot?
Or is there the weight loss for additional chambering so minor that it isn't worth the extra money?

Tosin Abasi Pickups:
do you guys know how the bridge voicings compare to the normal modern fluence sounds?
I am really not the biggest friend of bridge sounds (both voicings) of my lend strandberg here.

I really like the tosin abasi wiring, and think the sound of the splits is amazing! (judged by youtube...)
Passive humbucker also sounds promising. What I love the most, though, is the wiring.

gold hardware:
from what I've seen the knobs are really glossy. Is it possible to get them in matte? Or is this a standard knob which I could replace myself easily?

1 Bridge Full
2 Bridge split + Neck split (inner coils) https://youtu.be/quCBrlAyQWE?t=191
3 Both full
4 Neck split (inner coil) https://youtu.be/quCBrlAyQWE?t=191
5 Neck full

The only thing I'm missing with this setup is a standalone Bridge Split, which I could get with a
Push pull on tone knob, where blade on 1 would be Bridge Split and, as a bonus, position 3 is Bridge split + Neck full, which may sound interesting?

Which is great about this setup:
Similar to the Chapman ML3 Bea most of my alterations could be done with one motion. Switching Voicing AND the pick-up-combo or Splitting the Bridge split AND go from 5 to 1 are edge cases to me. So better to have only a few occasions where two actions are needed, compared to a 3 way switch setup (like the strandberg) where splitting is only done by push/pulls, which results in way more cases with two actions required.

To sum up the wiring:
– Tosin Abasi wiring
– Push pull on volume for voice 1 and 2
– I'd like passive voicing (voice 2) to be "default" > so the pushed in state should be passive
– Push pull on tone for forced/overwriting Bridge Split

I'm very happy and excited about this wiring. The question now is, if Kiesel does the Tosin Abasi wiring or if this is a case where a "super-switch" is required? I really want this wiring, but don't think it's feasable to buy a super-switch and send it to the US etc.

What do you mean with "with a 3k€ option you can choose the wood yourself"? Does the choosing cost an additional 3000 bucks or is it possible to have a saying in the wood choice once your bulid exceeds 3k?

Okay, chris is the guy to go to :D
Calling from Germany is gonna be quite expensive.
Do you guys have contact information from Chris directly, maybe an email-address, so I can ask for a skype appointment? The possibility to screenshare could also come in handy :)

OMG IT'S HAPPENING!

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby UnexplodedCow » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:25 am

The special controls/wiring will probably be expensive, and about the most questionable part of the order.

I simply ordered regular Fluence Moderns in my Z6X, and it comes with a 3 way switch plus one push/pull pot. If I want to change how it operates, I can easily do it myself, such as swapping in a 5 way switch with another push/pull pot and going for a similar wiring to the normal passive setup Kiesel uses for dual humbucker guitars. Then just use each push/pull for voicing changes/treble tilt (or whatever it's called).

Having the guitar modified will possibly be cheaper. However, there's the whole voiding of warranty (some will say swapping pickups or such is OK provided no wood is modified). You could always send an email and see how that goes. I'm not sure about Skype, but that'd surely be cheaper than calling another country. Mention it in an email, and see what happens.

Who knows, they may build exactly what you want, which would be a real time-saver. I'm curious.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby HarlowTheFish » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:11 am

katerlouis wrote:
HarlowTheFish wrote:Please sir can I have another?

What do you mean, Mister?


That that looks absolutely killer and I want one for myself :D
It's a line from Oliver Twist that I butchered because unlike my girlfriend, I am NOT a literature person.

3-piece-body:
Phew, really hard to say, but I guess just a black line is a lil meeh–, maybe there is no need for a 3-piece-body, when they could do a similar "binding-effect" to the zeus as seen in here: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl8tEuyATzx
To me it looks like the brown part is still the burled maple top but just colored brown instead of transluscent teal?
The Zeus also has a curved part on the top-wood. But it's quite more top that would be brown then. Hard to imagine how this would look. Dang.


Yeah, that's the natural binding thing they do. If you check out the Aries gallery there's a bunch like this, with an edge more like the Zeus.

chambering:
Does it make sense to get the chambered option when I already have the battery slot?
Or is there the weight loss for additional chambering so minor that it isn't worth the extra money?


The chambering is unrelated to the battery slot. You'll drop ~1-2lbs in weight, and you'll have a much more acoustically resonant instrument. It's worth it to me, but only you can decide if it's worth it for you.

Tosin Abasi Pickups:
do you guys know how the bridge voicings compare to the normal modern fluence sounds?
I am really not the biggest friend of bridge sounds (both voicings) of my lend strandberg here.


Voice 1 is like a modified Modern Voice 1. It's hot, it's tight, it's crazy aggressive. Voice 2 is like a more modern Classic in voice 2, something like a Duncan Pegasus. Voice 3 is actually different in the bridge and neck pickups: the neck is like a Tele neck pickup, and the bridge is like a Strat bridge pickup.

I really like the tosin abasi wiring, and think the sound of the splits is amazing! (judged by youtube...)
Passive humbucker also sounds promising. What I love the most, though, is the wiring.


It's like the HH Ibanez wiring I mentioned earlier, it's crazy versatile and super fun to play with. Gets you a ton of sounds without dealing with push-pulls and stuff.

gold hardware:
from what I've seen the knobs are really glossy. Is it possible to get them in matte? Or is this a standard knob which I could replace myself easily?


Standard knobs. Kiesel uses pots with Asian-spec shafts, so you just have to buy the appropriate knobs, but you can easily swap them out yourself.

1 Bridge Full
2 Bridge split + Neck split (inner coils) https://youtu.be/quCBrlAyQWE?t=191
3 Both full
4 Neck split (inner coil) https://youtu.be/quCBrlAyQWE?t=191
5 Neck full

The only thing I'm missing with this setup is a standalone Bridge Split, which I could get with a
Push pull on tone knob, where blade on 1 would be Bridge Split and, as a bonus, position 3 is Bridge split + Neck full, which may sound interesting?


Very doable.

Which is great about this setup:
Similar to the Chapman ML3 Bea most of my alterations could be done with one motion. Switching Voicing AND the pick-up-combo or Splitting the Bridge split AND go from 5 to 1 are edge cases to me. So better to have only a few occasions where two actions are needed, compared to a 3 way switch setup (like the strandberg) where splitting is only done by push/pulls, which results in way more cases with two actions required.

To sum up the wiring:
– Tosin Abasi wiring
– Push pull on volume for voice 1 and 2
– I'd like passive voicing (voice 2) to be "default" > so the pushed in state should be passive
– Push pull on tone for forced/overwriting Bridge Split

I'm very happy and excited about this wiring. The question now is, if Kiesel does the Tosin Abasi wiring or if this is a case where a "super-switch" is required? I really want this wiring, but don't think it's feasable to buy a super-switch and send it to the US etc.


A superswitch is required because of the way the Fluence pickups handle switching.
What you're looking for is a 4 pole 5 throw switch - it has 5 positions and 4 independent rows of switching, like 4 Strat switches activated by the same lever. Because the Fluence pickups use internal switching by running certain connections to ground, you need an isolated switch (or an isolated row of switching on a super switch), otherwise you'd just be running your pickup signal to ground.

If you want Kiesel to do it for you, you can probably order from a US retailer and have it shipped directly to Kiesel, but I recommend you just do it yourself once you have the guitar - more on that in a couple of paragraphs.

What do you mean with "with a 3k€ option you can choose the wood yourself"? Does the choosing cost an additional 3000 bucks or is it possible to have a saying in the wood choice once your bulid exceeds 3k?


The base cost for a model ($1,199 for a Z6) plus $3,000 (so at least $4,199 in your case) allows you to get it as a Kiesel Edition. This is basically the highest spec package they offer (the Kiesel Experience is basically this but you get to go to the factory and pick woods and hang out with the crew). You get the nicest woods, a ton of insane cosmetic options, and your build is done by Jeff, who works directly with you to decide on exactly what you want and sends you progress pics and stuff. Lemme find a couple of the build threads we have on here for you, I'll follow up in a few minutes.

Okay, chris is the guy to go to :D
Calling from Germany is gonna be quite expensive.
Do you guys have contact information from Chris directly, maybe an email-address, so I can ask for a skype appointment? The possibility to screenshare could also come in handy :)


His email is chris@kieselguitars.com, I don't remember his extension, but I'm sure someone here has it or you can ask for him when you call. I'm not sure if they'll do Skype appointments, but doesn't hurt to ask. Chris is super on top of his email communications too which is great.

UnexplodedCow wrote:The special controls/wiring will probably be expensive, and about the most questionable part of the order.

I simply ordered regular Fluence Moderns in my Z6X, and it comes with a 3 way switch plus one push/pull pot. If I want to change how it operates, I can easily do it myself, such as swapping in a 5 way switch with another push/pull pot and going for a similar wiring to the normal passive setup Kiesel uses for dual humbucker guitars. Then just use each push/pull for voicing changes/treble tilt (or whatever it's called).

Having the guitar modified will possibly be cheaper. However, there's the whole voiding of warranty (some will say swapping pickups or such is OK provided no wood is modified). You could always send an email and see how that goes. I'm not sure about Skype, but that'd surely be cheaper than calling another country. Mention it in an email, and see what happens.

Who knows, they may build exactly what you want, which would be a real time-saver. I'm curious.


As Cow brought up, you want a bunch of Option 50s - this is their "we don't do this normally so we're gonna put this code here and leave a note". Opt50s can get really pricey really fast, and a lot of them will invalidate your 10-day trial. My recommendation, personally, is to stick to options they offer when ordering: you get your 10-day trial to see if the guitar suits you, playability-wise, whether you like it, all that jazz, and if you don't you can return it for a refund or rebuild. A lot of the stuff you want (wood combos, colors, etc.) they do, which is great. The wiring they would definitely do as well, but would cost you, in cash and in the 10-day trial. It's a lot cheaper to do it yourself (I think you're in Europe, right? Schaller in Germany does a metric ****ton of superswitches that are obnoxiously pricey here in the States), and if you just take the first 10 days to evaluate the instrument with regards to your playing style and preferred, then once the trial is over do the modifications, you get the benefits of keeping your option of returning (if you need/want to for whatever reason) and doing whatever you want to it. Again, talk to Chris about it, let him know that ultimately that's what you'd be wanting to do and which route would be more prudent/economically viable.


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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby katerlouis » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:46 pm

Oh, okay– too bad; I figured since they have to wire it anyways, it's not that big of a deal for them to wire it a bit differently.

(Prepare for a dumb rookie question, but hey– I openly stated to be a Kiesel virgin :D)
What is an Opt50? I guess its an option they charge you 50 bucks for; but what makes a request an Opt50?

Doing the wiring on my own is not an option:
A few months back I wanted to pimp my Ibanez Art 120; Semour Duncan pickups (the one adam jones uses), push / pull poties, hipshot open gear locking tuners, new switch, etc.– Well.. luckily a friend of mine is a self-taught guitar technician.. For me personally there's too much knowledge required to do this kind of wiring. I mean, .. there was a strict wiring plan for the SD pickups and I had no idea what to do; sodoring tutorial, okay, sodoring equipment, meh, looking at colored wires to figure out what goes where, possible.. but.. I bought the wrong poties at first and thought I could stick with the normal tone poti.. I probably wouldn't have realized that until I plug the guitar in and am disappointed by the sound – This Zeus build is too expensive and important to me; I don't want to risk messing up sound quality without even realizing it could be better! :D – But I think with a few questions to you guys my friend could easily make this wiring happen :)

So a Kiesel Edition is 4,199 and already includes everything? Something like an all inclusive package? :D
Would that mean my absolute dream build? The golden hardware, MIDI and acoustic setup, the special wiring? 8)

Thanks for the links! I'll go through them in more detail when I find some more time :)

Something tells me this is not gonna be my last Kiesel guitar. It still feels like I have no idea what I'm doing here and that all I think I want may be absolute nonsens :D – So for this build I guess I stick to a "budget" plan.

PS: Why isn't the rest of my internet experience like in this forum? You guys are great!

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby spudmunkey » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:50 pm

So, option 50 has two different meanings. There's the way that everybody uses it, and then there's what it actually means.

The way people tend to use it, it basically means anything that would cause you to have to waive the 10 day trial period. It would still have the full warranty, but you would not have the 10 days to decide if you wanted to keep it before so I take it back. I have you even seen people use the term to refer to options that do have a code but still void the 10-day trial period, like the RTF... The raw tone finish.

Technically, all it means is that if you're asking for something for which there is not already an option code, like say NIN for no inlays or RNC for rear natural clear. Then they will use a code 50, which is sort of a blank code and allows them to add notes to your order. This can be anything from asking for a lighter piece of wood, all the way up to a custom finish from Jeff or even sometimes simply "see Jeff". Some option 50s do indeed void the 10-day trial period, but others do not.

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby katerlouis » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:02 pm

And my assumption about Op50 = cost 50 bucks more, is correct?

Waaait, I could get the finish done by Jeff himself without the Kiesel Edition / Experience? The finish only? What would that cost? And.. is there a difference in the result that justifies asking for him personally?

HarlowTheFish wrote:Voice 1 is like a modified Modern Voice 1. It's hot, it's tight, it's crazy aggressive. Voice 2 is like a more modern Classic in voice 2, something like a Duncan Pegasus. Voice 3 is actually different in the bridge and neck pickups: the neck is like a Tele neck pickup, and the bridge is like a Strat bridge pickup.

Wait, now I'm confused– You say "Voice 3"; are you still talking about the Killswitch Engage Pickups? Or does the Tosin Abasi set also have a third voicing I don't know about? Ooor do you mean "Split coil" with voice 3? The way I see it both voice 1 and 2 can be split, which wouldn't be the case with an actual voice 3, right? (darn, that's what confused me with the KSE pickups aswell :D – What's a voicing and what's a coil split!)

If you really are talking about the Tosin set, I'm a bit disappointed that theres a Tele sound in the neck; I'd hope its more of a stratty neck sound.

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby HarlowTheFish » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:35 pm

katerlouis wrote:Doing the wiring on my own is not an option:
A few months back I wanted to pimp my Ibanez Art 120; Semour Duncan pickups (the one adam jones uses), push / pull poties, hipshot open gear locking tuners, new switch, etc.– Well.. luckily a friend of mine is a self-taught guitar technician.. For me personally there's too much knowledge required to do this kind of wiring. I mean, .. there was a strict wiring plan for the SD pickups and I had no idea what to do; sodoring tutorial, okay, sodoring equipment, meh, looking at colored wires to figure out what goes where, possible.. but.. I bought the wrong poties at first and thought I could stick with the normal tone poti.. I probably wouldn't have realized that until I plug the guitar in and am disappointed by the sound – This Zeus build is too expensive and important to me; I don't want to risk messing up sound quality without even realizing it could be better! :D – But I think with a few questions to you guys my friend could easily make this wiring happen :)


Yeah no just send your friend the Tosin wiring diagram and see what they think. It's not super tough.


So a Kiesel Edition is 4,199 and already includes everything? Something like an all inclusive package? :D
Would that mean my absolute dream build? The golden hardware, MIDI and acoustic setup, the special wiring? 8)


Ehhh, depends. $4,199 would be the base price for a Kiesel edition, but it can go up. Like, this is the page
https://www.kieselguitars.com/kieselspecialeditions/

Literally all they say is "call the guys" with regards to specifics. So, ya know, call the guys.

Thanks for the links! I'll go through them in more detail when I find some more time :)


No problem, my dude.

And my assumption about Op50 = cost 50 bucks more, is correct?


Nope. It's called an Option 50 because 50 is the code in their ordering system that means custom option. Can range from free (deleting a knob before that got a code, for example) to stratospherically expensive when they really don't want to do something but are still willing to give you a quote.

Waaait, I could get the finish done by Jeff himself without the Kiesel Edition / Experience? The finish only? What would that cost? And.. is there a difference in the result that justifies asking for him personally?


Jeff does some finishes himself normally, but the Kiesel Edition/Experience are all built by him all the way through. It's just because it's a more involved process that has more back and forth and stuff and I figure he likes to be more hands on because this is THE most expensive line.

[quote[
Wait, now I'm confused– You say "Voice 3"; are you still talking about the Killswitch Engage Pickups? Or does the Tosin Abasi set also have a third voicing I don't know about? Ooor do you mean "Split coil" with voice 3? The way I see it both voice 1 and 2 can be split, which wouldn't be the case with an actual voice 3, right? (darn, that's what confused me with the KSE pickups aswell :D – What's a voicing and what's a coil split!)

If you really are talking about the Tosin set, I'm a bit disappointed that theres a Tele sound in the neck; I'd hope its more of a stratty neck sound.[/quote]

The Tosin set has a voice 3 as well. I originally recommended the KSE set (which, FYI in case you were confused, also works with the Tosin wiring) because Voice 3 is more of a strat tone, whereas the Tosin one is different. But yes, both of these have 3 voices, and, like all the other Fishman pickups, they can be coil split. The third voice on both is optimized for the split (and the Tosin neck pickup is built really differently for the same reason), just like the Devin Townsend set (which only has 2 voices - the humbucker-focused one and the tele-single-kinda one), the Keith Merrow set (which there's not much on, so I can't tell you much about, but also 3 voices) and the new open-core Classics (which don't seem super up your alley).

TL;DR: The KSE set does the thing you want with the sounds you want, the others come with caveats.

Something tells me this is not gonna be my last Kiesel guitar. It still feels like I have no idea what I'm doing here and that all I think I want may be absolute nonsens :D – So for this build I guess I stick to a "budget" plan.

*ahem*
:soapbox:
My Kiesel build had four extra charge options: tung oiled neck, thinner profile, luminlay front dots, and white pickups. It's got all the features I need: headless, multiscale, luminlay out the wazoo, comfy controls, but it's also just solid gloss. Super simple. You seem to have a ton of ideas, so narrow down what you want in a couple of areas first:

Tone

Feel

Features

And leave cosmetics for later, and just get what works in your budget. Don't neglect it - a guitar you don't like the looks of isn't gonna get played - but important stuff first. You've already told us what you're looking for tonally, and you seem to be settling on some specs. Try to play with the builder a bit, try a couple of ideas, and get a feel for the cost. If you want, we can throw together a couple of sample builds if you want - I don't think anyone here will pass up the chance to put a build together - but you need a brief for what you're looking for. Don't get discouraged, and please don't think I'm trying to lecture you, 'cause I think you're well on the right track, and I'm glad to help you figure it out.

*gets off soapbox*

PS: Why isn't the rest of my internet experience like in this forum? You guys are great!

It's a small forum with good mods. You don't really last long here if you're gonna be an ass to people. We also love to talk about gear, so like, of course we're gonna help!

Besides I get to vicariously experience ordering a Zeus through you :lol:

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby katerlouis » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:32 am

Oh– yeah, Tosins set also has a third voicing indeed. But.. does that mean when Tosin calls position 4 a coil split of the two inner coils, in reality this is just voice 3 of both pickups combined?

One last try to sum up my general confusion with the terminology:
on the strandberg normal modern fluence set, push pull on tone knob changes between voice 1 and 2
and push pull on the volume knob splits the currently selected voicing. Resulting in 4 different combinations per pickup-combination (voice 1 full, voice 1 split, voice 2 full, voice 2 split) –

Now on the KSE or Tosin set, could voice 1 and 2 get splitted or is it intended that voice 3 replaces the "manual coilsplit" – Or is voice 3 just intended to be splitted and could hypothetically used as a humbucker?

What is correct:
a) v1 full, v1 split, v2 full, v2 split, v3 full, v3 split possible on each pickup combionation
b) or v1 full, v2 full, v3 coilsplit on each pickup combination?

According to this wiring plan https://www.fishman.com/wp-content/uplo ... Switch.pdf – it looks like b) is the case?
What confuses there again, though, is that voice 3 uses the inner neck coil on position 2, whereas on position 4 the OUTER neck coil is used–

Sorry if this all seems trivial to you guys– but this confusion bugs me and I just need to understand this :D

Okaaay–
Now to my concerns of the bridge sounds.
What do you say to me being scared of the "too metally" sound of the KSE bridge pickup? How exactly does the Tosin bridge differ from the KSE bridge?
Why I ask these questions? I'm thinking a KSE in the neck and Tosin in the bridge 8) – BOOM!

The thing is, the demos I saw from the KSE pickups didn't kick me on the bridge; from what I heard of Tosins neck pickup, it's probably spanky enough for me?

https://youtu.be/EmlHUIQNBY4?t=219
I mean, .. I don't think this sounds great :?

https://youtu.be/EmlHUIQNBY4?t=399
This voice 3 is significantly quieter than the other voicings, which I assume is normal when you split the coils, but Tosin Abasi says his pickups balance that out. And I also think this sounds kinda thin, don't you?

https://youtu.be/s1Pdx2X1Rno?t=329
here aswell.. bridge voice 2, meeeh?



From what I heard so far the Tosin demo had really great split neck sounds– But of course, these are youtube demos I listen to on earbuds. They maybe use amps I don't like, or something gets lost in their record process, or the cabs aren't to my liking. This is why I need advice people who actually played them. Only comparison I have is the modern fluence, and they didn't quite resonate with me so far, although I probably just suck at dialing in tone.

(Maybe that's a good opportunity to tell you guys that I'm using a Line6 Helix with AKG K240 Mark II headphones at home–)

Now the most important question! (irony)
The fluence pickups come in gold aswell; does the KSE / Tosin sets ? 8)


General question: how big is the tonal difference between the outer or single coil on a coil split in a neck for example? The wiring plan suggests you can have both, which means: I have to decide which one I want :D.


Well– theres still a huge gap between not being an asshole and being as understanding and helpfull as you guys are!

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Re: Kiesel virgin asking for some tips on a Zeus Z6 build?

Postby katerlouis » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:26 am

Looook at this :)
Goooold pickups pleeeeeease
gold logo, gold evo frets, gold switch tip

Btw.: I remember one of you sweet people was looking for some example pics of really dark fretboards :)

High-RES
Render2.jpg
High-RES

(Kiesel should hire me to do guitar designs and pay me in guitars 8))
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