A message from Frank Gambale

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Evster2012
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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Evster2012 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:25 pm

If you can't support yourself by selling your craft, you must tour, tour TOUR yourself into an early grave just to pay the bills. Some life. It's a wonder anyone can find time to compose and record anymore. A darn shame. :wall:

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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby amon » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:44 am

Casual Madman wrote:Point one: I said, "in essence." That is, "paraphrased to display the attitude." Nothing was made up (except, apparently, your mind).

The words and the attitude were yours, not mine. Also, yours is the mind that's already made up. I'm open to any realistic solution.


Casual Madman wrote:Point two: Taking what does not belong to you is theft.

Again. Nothing has been taken. Copies were made and/or transferred illegally. It's like you're purposefully choosing to not understand the fundamentals of the issue.


Casual Madman wrote:Point three: I thought my solution was pretty obvious. To quote Google, "Don't be evil."

"Evil" is neither a legal nor a technical term, and throughout history has routinely been subject to biased misinterpretation. You bring nothing to the discussion by standing on finger-wagging. That was the entirety of Osama bin Laden's cave recordings.

Once again, if you have any input as to how to make end users conform to the business model into which you would like to fit the music industry, please share those ideas. But I've seen this same conversation many times over, and attempting to shame those who disagree with you will not work.

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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby spudmunkey » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:52 am

amon wrote:
Casual Madman wrote:Point two: Taking what does not belong to you is theft.

Again. Nothing has been taken. Copies were made and/or transferred illegally. It's like you're purposefully choosing to not understand the fundamentals of the issue.


Genuine curiosity here...why is the distinction so important? It's it called "intellectual theft" when you utilize, without permission, someone's invention, idea or data? How is that different from illegal copying? nothing is stopping the original creator from still having the original materials, but they were prevented their due income from someone else getting a copy.

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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby 2Plus2isChicken » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:10 am

This topic has gone where I wish topics here wouldn't go. Can we not all agree that stealing is stealing, whether it's physical or digital? That much I am certain of.
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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby amon » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:16 am

spudmunkey wrote:Genuine curiosity here...why is the distinction so important? It's it called "intellectual theft" when you utilize, without permission, someone's invention, idea or data?

Because some of us are interested in finding a solution that doesn't rely on finger-wagging.

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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby amon » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:23 am

2Plus2isChicken wrote:Can we not all agree that stealing is stealing, whether it's physical or digital? That much I am certain of.

Illegal copying is not stealing, just as assault is not rape, as manslaughter is not murder, and so on. Each is its own distinct violation. When we can't even get clear on what the problem is, the solution becomes that much more difficult to sort out.

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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby ElfDude » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:34 am

amon wrote:
2Plus2isChicken wrote:Can we not all agree that stealing is stealing, whether it's physical or digital? That much I am certain of.

Illegal copying is not stealing, just as assault is not rape, as manslaughter is not murder, and so on. Each is its own distinct violation. When we can't even get clear on what the problem is, the solution becomes that much more difficult to sort out.


Now, just for clarification (so we ALL understand)... you mentioned a number of "violations" there:
Illegal copying, stealing, assault, rape, manslaughter, and murder.
Are you saying that ANY of these "violations" is okay, or not wrong, or acceptable behavior?
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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby 2Plus2isChicken » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:27 am

Illegal copying may not be the exact same thing as physically stealing something, but it is a type of stealing, because the owner of the digital item says so. Artists create music with the idea that each person who has it paid for a copy of it, just like a grocery store owner expects each person who buys a carton of milk to pay for it.

I don't think the problem of piracy will ever go away, though, because of the nature of people. They aren't all going to stop doing it just because you politely ask. It's just not right.
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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby amon » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:01 pm

ElfDude wrote:Now, just for clarification (so we ALL understand)... you mentioned a number of "violations" there:
Illegal copying, stealing, assault, rape, manslaughter, and murder.
Are you saying that ANY of these "violations" is okay, or not wrong, or acceptable behavior?

No, your honor, I am not.


:mrgreen:

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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby bornagaincarvinite » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:04 pm

Owning intellectual property, specifically defined as *the legally recognized exclusive rights to creations of the mind*, means exactly that....exclusive rights to said creation. That means the right to control it`s distribution.


Not necessarily true. You can restrict your personal, original performance of a song but its use or duplication can not be restricted if the user is willing to pay a licensing fee and the industry has set up standard rates which are usually negotiated lower, and companies to collect your fees , which they do not do very well. Otherwise the industry would grind to a halt, and back to the Star Trek references, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

There lies the problem, once the Jeanie is out of the bottle ....... and once you play it in public or reproduce it on any media the Jeannie is out.

Steve Vai`s participation in all of this. Well, here`s another fact that blows that whole shooting match right out of the water: His albums on Sony are all encoded with a code that makes his songs unplayable if copied. It was a conscious, active decision to do so. As with anything the "code" has been cracked by the persistently criminal minded and you will see his stuff on torrent sites from time to time, but let me assure you, he did NOT "allow" it.


Of course no one would allow the improper use of his music. Steve would never allow as he is an astute businessman. But he is aware of the problem and is aware that it is a difficult problem. So while he doesn't condone or allow it, he is effectively giving music away for free by having his own youtube channel and posting performances and songs on it (and rotating songs on it as well). I applaud Steve Vai. He is gaining exposure and deriving income from his free music on youtube.

Sony's encoding has nothing to do with Vai and its their attempt to eliminate pirating and I hope it works as well. Pirating is wrong plan and simple. No one is arguing that. The discussion should be until we can stop it, how do we make it ineffective. I, Vai, Dale, and others have realized its almost impossible to stop though no one has said to stop trying, but until a reliable method can curtail it, other actions have to be taken to generate revenue for the artist.

Yes, piracy is a crime. It`s not "interpreted" as a crime, it`s a crime. Yes, it affects some artists DRASTICALLY (no, not all. There`s a significant bell curve). Yes, there are alternative ways to make money in the industry. That doesn`t make it less of a crime. To argue otherwise is ignorant, uninformed, and in my opinion....downright buffoonery. But hey, keep fighting the good fight.


Agreed, 1,000%. Its wrong whether it hurts a little or a lot but it either case it exists so you can't sit there, you have to survive with it existing around you whether you like or not. You go to work each day because you need money to survive. You might not like everyone who works with you but you have to survive. You make changes when you can but until you can you still have to perceiver and exist.

My suggestion is just trying to make it hurt less until a better fix comes along. My suggestion is not the end all either but it should be followed whether or not pirating existed in the first place or is somehow stopped because if you read some of my earlier posts, record companies give a bulk of an artist material away for free in exchange for exposure and deduct the costs of this from the artist which technically has the same if not worse financial effect on the artist than pirating.

If you can't support yourself by selling your craft, you must tour, tour TOUR yourself into an early grave just to pay the bills. Some life. It's a wonder anyone can find time to compose and record anymore. A darn shame


Also 1,000% agreed. That's why many sophomore releases are substandard to the freshman release. A band has had years to perfect their initial releases and then its tour, tour, tour, tour and sell, sell, sell. Their creativity is drained and there is no time. Then you get older, you get tired. You get bored. etc. You get FAT AND BALD!!!!! Its a tough friggin life. A remember one thing. A gold album, which itself is rare these days, forget platinum, is only about 50k in profit which isn't chump change but then figure how many hours and what you sacrificed to get there, its a tough road to hoe.

Its a hard life to maintain especially when there is someone younger, fresher, and not as tired nipping at your heals. What do artists do? Stupid things to bring attention to themselves in hopes to coral in their fan base. Its a very tough life.

Illegal copying may not be the exact same thing as physically stealing something, but it is a type of stealing, because the owner of the digital item says so. Artists create music with the idea that each person who has it paid for a copy of it, just like a grocery store owner expects each person who buys a carton of milk to pay for it.

I don't think the problem of piracy will ever go away, though, because of the nature of people. They aren't all going to stop doing it just because you politely ask. It's just not right.


Agreed as well. And it exists in other businesses and other facets of life. Check out my earlier posts. There is always going to be some bad that detracts from the good. My point was not to condone the bad but an attempt to minimize it effect.

And for rest, its been a good discussion but it is getting inflammatory and it shouldn't so maybe this thread should be locked or we all just tone it down for a while.

Ciao

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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby ElfDude » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:50 pm

amon wrote:
ElfDude wrote:Now, just for clarification (so we ALL understand)... you mentioned a number of "violations" there:
Illegal copying, stealing, assault, rape, manslaughter, and murder.
Are you saying that ANY of these "violations" is okay, or not wrong, or acceptable behavior?

No, your honor, I am not.


:mrgreen:


Of course you're not. No one in here is that I've seen.

That's why my wife and I just BOUGHT the new Yes CD. 8)
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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby arahobob » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:30 pm

ElfDude wrote:
amon wrote:
ElfDude wrote:Now, just for clarification (so we ALL understand)... you mentioned a number of "violations" there:
Illegal copying, stealing, assault, rape, manslaughter, and murder.
Are you saying that ANY of these "violations" is okay, or not wrong, or acceptable behavior?

No, your honor, I am not.


:mrgreen:


Of course you're not. No one in here is that I've seen.

That's why my wife and I just BOUGHT the new Yes CD. 8)


Can you send me a copy?
Thanks!
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:

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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby ElfDude » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:39 pm

And here we see another example of how the musical world is changing:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1711196158/jon-anderson-and-jean-luc-ponty-project
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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby voodoo jeff » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:07 pm

Great reply BornAgain. I have been really hesitant to jump in on this thread as it`s obviously a flammable subject and turns argumentative very quickly, and argumentative has never been my intent.

You made some great points without splitting hairs. I have respect for that.

And yep, I knew the Sony encoding had nothing to do with Steve as far as who`s decision it was to implement it, it was just an example, and it`s not like Steve said "Oh no, Sony..please don`t do that!" LOL.

And again, I agree with another point: Steve`s YouTube channel. I do agree he is embracing the idea of putting his music out freely, and on his own terms. I know he is vehemently against piracy, so I`m sure there was a very specific strategy at hand when that decision was made.

There is a solution out there. We all know it`ll never stop completely, but I am certain there is a way to either reduce the incidents or find a way to turn revenue from it. It`s always been nearly impossible to make any money with record sales, but publishing is a handsome way to earn a living if you get a song in rotation on radio, yet that is a slowly decaying medium as well. My band is resisting recording an "album" because it`s really a total money pit in every way. I`m working on a solo album simply to chronicle some really tough days in recent times, but I have no intentions of putting it to retail. But ya` know....we put on one hell of a live show :-D
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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Casual Madman » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:05 pm

What we need is a form of encryption that works like this: you make an illegitimate copy of a song, it comes out sounding like Justin Bieber. With adenoids.

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Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby ElfDude » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:07 pm

Casual Madman wrote:What we need is a form of encryption that works like this: you make an illegitimate copy of a song, it comes out sounding like Justin Bieber. With adenoids.


:lol: :applause:
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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby gpbarnett » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:48 pm

I hesitate to add anything to this thread, but I'm hoping this gets it back on track. Here is an article proposing that some sort of premium subscription model is the solution to the quagmire the music industry is in:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... om-tv.html

I subscribe to Pandora, Amazon Prime (my DirecTV also includes some music channels). Neither really fit what the author is proposing. If something came along that offered excellent new music of comparable quality to the TV being created by AMC, HBO, Showtime, Netflix, etc., I would probably subscribe.

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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Casual Madman » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:12 pm


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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby bornagaincarvinite » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:45 am

I hesitate to add anything to this thread, but I'm hoping this gets it back on track. Here is an article proposing that some sort of premium subscription model is the solution to the quagmire the music industry is in:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... om-tv.html


I would love to see this happen but TV is a different media. Not everyone can produce a tv show and get it seen whereas music is much more accessible. Also, TV is a different type of entertainment in that it includes visual and as well as audio. But a great article anyways and food for thought.

Meanwhile, a very different challenge to the $.99 song model.


This is a great article and what I really love to see. Somebody trying something different. He realizes the standard mode of operation is not enough and may not work. His attempt may or may not work but at least he is exploring and trying, going in eyes wide open and not relying on anyone else but himself. Like he says in the very last line of the article "plan your life". That's the best line. This was a great add Casual Madman.

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re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Casual Madman » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:29 pm

There's a fair amount of logic behind the $3-song notion. Let's say your "average" CD sells for USD 17.00 and has 8 tracks. Each track is theoretically worth $2 and change. But let's face it: how many albums do you own on which every song is one you'll listen to repeatedly? Most albums have maybe 3 standout tracks (that's my standard to buy an album, as a matter of fact: minimum 3 songs I want to hear more than once). The rest is somewhere between "not quite really good," "listenable but only if I can't conveniently change tracks," and "out-and-out filler."

So those 3 GOOD tracks are actually worth about $3 each.

It might even be possible to sell on a sliding scale: the "hits" go for more than the B-sides.


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