A message from Frank Gambale

Discuss Kiesel Guitars Endorsers and Professional Players

Moderators: Kevio, ElfDude, JesseM, RockCrue, soundchick, ChrisH, peb, Mike Jones, Bundy

MatiasTolkki
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 2745
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Nagoya, Japan (home of Hoshino Gakki)

Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby MatiasTolkki » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:35 am

bornagaincarvinite wrote:amon - great article, just saw it now and it basically says it all

casual madman, no you do not want the jem, you want the money from the jem sales! Change that, you want the jem and also the money from the jem sales.


I'll take just the JEM. Hoshino needs those JEM sales or they're screwed.

User avatar
GuitarSlinger
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: MN

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby GuitarSlinger » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:21 am

Amen.... I hear you Frank and Agree 1000% I have also scene my income from my music sales GREATLY impacted by this too. I at first got my lawyer to issue a Cease and Desist letter. However, I had to pay my lawyer to do this (never thought of contacting google first hand)... so that was more money going out the window... So I was loosing money from people illegally offering downloads of my music for free and now having to pay a lawyer to try to get them to stop. But, like you said they just come back.... People need to realize this is theft and it only hurts the Artist/Musician etc.... If you like a persons music then support them by buying their music so then they can keep making more music.

MatiasTolkki
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 2745
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Nagoya, Japan (home of Hoshino Gakki)

Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby MatiasTolkki » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:51 pm

GuitarSlinger wrote:Amen.... I hear you Frank and Agree 1000% I have also scene my income from my music sales GREATLY impacted by this too. I at first got my lawyer to issue a Cease and Desist letter. However, I had to pay my lawyer to do this (never thought of contacting google first hand)... so that was more money going out the window... So I was loosing money from people illegally offering downloads of my music for free and now having to pay a lawyer to try to get them to stop. But, like you said they just come back.... People need to realize this is theft and it only hurts the Artist/Musician etc.... If you like a persons music then support them by buying their music so then they can keep making more music.


Well if there was a way for you to do what Iron Maiden did and track where the most illegal downloads of your music are and then play live there, that will help transcend a lot of this stuff. Maiden still makes money because they just stay on tour and go to places where their music is being illegally downloaded so the fans can see the band live. Supposedly it has worked.

However, the reason for this mess is Metallica. Lars opened his fat mouth about Napster, which not that many people even knew about (at the time) and it opened the floodgates. Had those idiots just kept their traps shut, the industry would have stayed solvent for a couple extra years.

User avatar
nascarbean_97
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1985
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Vancouver, WA

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby nascarbean_97 » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:46 am

It's really just a question of your honesty. Yeah, your honesty. One likes to believe in the freedom of music. Okay yeah y'all get it. :lol:

But seriously, it's so stupid that these websites stay open. And the Maiden thing was a myth I'm pretty sure.

Anyways, I always attend shows and buy merch directly from the bands I love, and I always download directly from the band (if they allow) and purchase a physical copy if I feel like I need one. Music has always just kind of been most of my life so I guess it's natural for me to do it, but everyone should support the musicians they want to hear. If you honestly can't pay, at least use some sort of service like pandora or spotify that helps you discover new artists, and even though it's only a little bit, the musician does get payed. And if you do love it, and want to listen to the song or album all the time, just buy it.

An album costs two starbucks coffees, songs cost a pack of gum. Not that big of a deal to spend that.

User avatar
bornagaincarvinite
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 2010

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby bornagaincarvinite » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:32 pm

Well if there was a way for you to do what Iron Maiden did and track where the most illegal downloads of your music are and then play live there, that will help transcend a lot of this stuff. Maiden still makes money because they just stay on tour and go to places where their music is being illegally downloaded so the fans can see the band live. Supposedly it has worked.

However, the reason for this mess is Metallica. Lars opened his fat mouth about Napster, which not that many people even knew about (at the time) and it opened the floodgates. Had those idiots just kept their traps shut, the industry would have stayed solvent for a couple extra years.


Exactly Right! They were smart and capitalized on it!!!

The song is the draw or loss leader for the band to get people to attend shows and buy merchandise which performance and sales are more profitable than the song itself, even with all the accrued potential mechanicals. This is the current music business model which is not much different than the old model. Just repackaged and given a new name.

Most record contracts allow for up to 20 to 25% reduction of your sales and revenue as recoup for promotion! More so for new, untested acts.

What is promotion? Free copies and free licensing of your music!!! Labels know this helps promote the act and bring in the other revenue.

Labels heavily discount licensing mechanicals (the standard rate is a pipe dream) in exchange for the opportunity just to have a song heard. Do you think movie soundtracks pay a full rate? Labels throw this stuff at movies just to be heard on the ending credits!

A BAND NEEDS EXPOSURE. With so much music available on the internet and with the ease of entry into this business so low, the competition to make money is fierce to say the least. you should expect to give something away for free in exchange for this exposure. Otherwise you are dreaming.

And think about it. If you make only pennies on a download and say 20,000, which I doubt you would ever lose, were actually stolen, then it only costs you about $200 (20k times 1 penny) in revenue but that's 20,000 new fans and exposure.

If just 1% of those 20,000 people then go and buy tickets to your next show, and your merchandise, all of which has a 300% return (industry standard) which is more profitable than your song, then that's 200 people making you thousands all because you lost $200 in exchange for exposure. The 200 loss isn't enough to even pay your attorney for a good cease and desist.

Hmmm. 200 makes thousands? I may not like the procedure but I like what I see in my bank account. This is a business. Its called the music business. But its still a business. Gambale is an artist and a great artist but a lousy businessman otherwise he wouldn't be complaining about downloads and instead giving them away for free to stimulate performance and other revenue.

Once again, just think of Steve Vai! He gets it in spades.

All this doesn't mean stealing right. It never is but it is a reality. Other businesses have similar issues so its not just the music business. Every business has a similar dark side. However, a successful act recognizes these negatives and turns lemon into lemonade.
Last edited by bornagaincarvinite on Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Casual Madman
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 2205
Joined: Nov 2013
Location: Garland TX

Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Casual Madman » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:36 pm

bornagaincarvinite wrote:Stealing is never right but its a reality so rather than cry about it, capitalize on it.


By that logic, I can justifiably kill the person who stands in the way of my advancement at work. Murder is just as real as theft.

No wonder everyone hates lawyers.

User avatar
bornagaincarvinite
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 2010

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby bornagaincarvinite » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:59 pm

Wow, that's a great comparison,. Murder compared to stealing a download that makes the artist 1 penny per download.

The point is you can either go to work each day and complain about your boss, your job, your life, and cry a river, or deal with reality and take control.

Go google Pink Floyd's Wall Album. They were upset that in the past there were only 6 channels of distribution in the record industry and all 6 were literally controlled by organized crime. They were also mad that it was customary for free promos to be given out for exposure. They decided they were going to do it there way and as a result the album sat in card board boxes for 40 weeks until they came around.

Do you think coca cola, pepsi, bear, all gets trucked around without some graff and payoffs along the way? Do you think national tv sets for a show like the today show are all on the up and up?

I could go on and on and none of these activities were created by attorneys or governed by attorneys. They were created by your neighbor, your boss, or even you. All the attorney does is figure out the rules to the game and explains it to his or her client. The client decides whether or not he or she wants to play. Those that play make money. those that can't or won't play sit on the bench and blame the attorney (coach).

By the way. My clients don't like me either. They love me.

User avatar
Casual Madman
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 2205
Joined: Nov 2013
Location: Garland TX

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Casual Madman » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:09 pm

OK, bad analogy. I should have said that I can justifiably encourage someone who likes my management style to kill the current boss so I can take over.

There are no "degrees of wrong." A thing is right, or it is not. An action is moral, or it is not.

And by the way, you are completely missing the point, even as you beat it to death: Everything, every process you describe and endorse above is controlled by the content creator. If I make music, write a book, cook food, paint a picture, draw up a contract, whatever, and then give it away: THAT'S MY CHOICE.

If I make music, write a book, cook food, paint a picture, draw up a contract, whatever, offer it for sale, and you take what has been produced without payment: YOU'RE A THIEF.

What exactly is so bloody hard to understand about the distinction?

GIVE: GOOD
TAKE: BAD
DISCUSSION: OVER

User avatar
bornagaincarvinite
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 2010

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby bornagaincarvinite » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:50 pm

I personally have never stolen anything. EVER! I am a strong believer in Kharma so to intentionally or even negligently cause some one else harm in any way is against my values.

I haven't missed the point at all but I live in the real world. In any business and every business there is some form of corruption whether it be someone fudging time cards, stealing paper clips, or greasing palms to get a delivery or paying a union to break down a tv set daily and place it in storage for the next days use when in actuality the set remains on the sound stage in tact without anyone coming near it.

Ever negotiate face to face with a Riggers union rep who suddenly decided he needed a little more to get his crew to set up the lighting and sound for a concert so the musicians can perform and make their money? Even though in reality the road crew does most of the time in many venues local unions require union riggers on site and to be paid as well.

Your point is that this is wrong and therefore the show should be canceled. My point is that it is indeed wrong but look at what it costs you. Not performing to prove a point is a Pyrrhic Victory. So you have to deal with these situations and make the best of it. That's the point.

Next time book a different venue. Next time let people upload your music for free so there is no point in stealing it. Realize that your intellectual property is not just the song but you. Adapt or adjust your business plan to reflect this. Make money in other areas many of which are more profitable so that you have the income to keep doing what you love which is making music. This is what I am preaching. Not whether something is right or wrong. I accept the fact that the badness has been around since the beginning of time and I don't condone it, I try and change it when you can, but also survive and my clients survive within it.

I meet with so many talented people who have just given up. Not just in music but in other intellectual property right endeavors (I also rep many computer programmers who have developed algorithms that are astonishing). And I find most if not all of these creative people lose their dream and inspiration along the way because they wouldn't recognize the badness, get depressed and transcend into a non creative career. This to me is more of a crime than stealing a song. neither is right, but decisions have to be made and I would chose to lose a few uploads and feed the creativity of the client then protect all the uploads and lose the client.

FYI, did you know many of the attorneys who represent the high profile murderers (I consider this dirt law work) many times handle the matter for free or at cost just to gain the exposure. I know and despise one such atty who represented several murders here in Mass. just so he could overcharge local drug dealers. As Kharma would have it, this jerk is now in jail which is another story.

Please do not take what I am saying as personal. If you were my client you would get this speech in spades and then we would market you as an entire intellectual piece of property and you would realize how trivial the song aspect really is compared to the real product which is you. That is my point.

User avatar
Casual Madman
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 2205
Joined: Nov 2013
Location: Garland TX

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Casual Madman » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:50 pm

When, exactly, did the ability to create something with no intrinsic value other than the ability to inspire emotion (art, in other words), become valueless?

Answer: It hasn't. Paintings are selling for higher prices than ever. Ditto classic cars, assorted memorabilia, and gourmet meals; all things with little physical value but great emotional value.

Why, then, ought it just be accepted that a product that can be easily stolen should be stolen?

If I like your car, is it OK if I take it from you? What if I have to bash your head in to do so? If I'm going to bash your head in, anyway, why not just move into your house and take all your stuff? I mean, you've got nice stuff. I like it. I have the means to take it from you. Why shouldn't I?

Because that way lies the jungle, that's why. Because I am a man. with moral character and the ability to see past the primal want to what is right if we are to live in a civilized society.

And by the way, were I in a band getting held up by union hijinks, I would cancel the show. I'd announce the exact reason loudly and clearly across every media platform I could reach. Then I'd do a free makeup performance at another venue, or a city park, or wherever I could arrange, no matter the financial loss: because it's MY CHOICE. Not yours.

A Pyrrhic victory is still a victory.

User avatar
ferret
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1352
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby ferret » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:39 am

Gambale made the following choice:

Loss 20-50% of potential book/music sales to pirates, but gain lots of press, exposure, good will, increased crowds at shows, etc, as bornagaincarvinite illustrates. Simply because you actually released something.

versus:
Loss 100% of potential sales by making no release at all, and loss everything else that goes along with having a new release, and further potential negativity from telling fans you have a product but won't let them buy it.

And he chose the second one. People seem to be really really hung up on the idea that "Theft is bad, why don't you guys get it?"

None of us have said theft is good. We've simply stated it's the reality of the world, and Gambale isn't doing anything that will actually stop it. He's hurting his own fans, supporters and himself by keeping a product behind lock and key instead of selling it.

Meanwhile, the pirates still don't care. It's not even a pyrrhic victory. It's an outright loss for Gambale in every way.

User avatar
ElfDude
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10581
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: In and around the lake

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby ElfDude » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:37 am

I kind of feel like I'm watching Dr. McCoy argue with Spock in an old episode of Star Trek. McCoy argued passionately the emotions of his heart while Spock countered with logic. And I liked both characters.

Bornagaincarvinite... I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on what D_ick Dale has to say in this little clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AJxc3Lxn4o
Aries A6H, CS6M, SH445, Contour 66, AE185, DC135, CT4M, Bolt, SH225, LB76F, Nomad, VT16 Head, V410, Pro Bass 100
Midlife Crisis on Facebook
The Tri-Chevys on Facebook

User avatar
Casual Madman
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 2205
Joined: Nov 2013
Location: Garland TX

Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Casual Madman » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:34 am

ferret wrote:People seem to be really really hung up on the idea that "Theft is bad, why don't you guys get it?"

None of us have said theft is good. We've simply stated it's the reality of the world, and Gambale isn't doing anything that will actually stop it.


Reality is not right. One man alone cannot, perhaps, make a difference. But one man can inspire others. That can make a difference. Look what happened in Alabama in the 60s because one women refused to give up her seat.

"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." -- John Stuart Mill

User avatar
bornagaincarvinite
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 2010

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby bornagaincarvinite » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:45 am

[QUOTE]I kind of feel like I'm watching Dr. McCoy argue with Spock in an old episode of Star Trek. McCoy argued passionately the emotions of his heart while Spock countered with logic. And I liked both characters.

Bornagaincarvinite... I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on what D_ick Dale has to say in this little clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AJxc3Lxn4o[QUOTE]

Thanks ElfDude, we are now even for the ap11!!!! Only Kidding. The video says it all and confirms what I have been saying 1,000%, including merchandising which generates a lot more revenue than the mechanicals from a song.

User avatar
spudmunkey
Elite Carvinite
Elite Carvinite
Posts: 15683
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby spudmunkey » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:54 am

Casual Madman wrote:Look what happened in Alabama in the 60s because one women refused to give up her seat.



Yup. Claudette Colvin. :) (look it up...I had no ideas until I saw that episode of Drunk History. :)) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudette_Colvin

[/unrelated comment of no value to the coversation] :D

User avatar
bornagaincarvinite
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 2010

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby bornagaincarvinite » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:09 pm

Gambale made the following choice:

Loss 20-50% of potential book/music sales to pirates, but gain lots of press, exposure, good will, increased crowds at shows, etc, as bornagaincarvinite illustrates. Simply because you actually released something.

versus:
Loss 100% of potential sales by making no release at all, and loss everything else that goes along with having a new release, and further potential negativity from telling fans you have a product but won't let them buy it.

And he chose the second one. People seem to be really really hung up on the idea that "Theft is bad, why don't you guys get it?"

None of us have said theft is good. We've simply stated it's the reality of the world, and Gambale isn't doing anything that will actually stop it. He's hurting his own fans, supporters and himself by keeping a product behind lock and key instead of selling it.

Meanwhile, the pirates still don't care. It's not even a pyrrhic victory. It's an outright loss for Gambale in every way.


You are absolutely SPOT ON.

Here is another example. Lots of bands make tremendous performing revenues over seas but zero song royalties (Metal in Japan and blues bands in Europe particularly France). Foreign markets have "sub publishing" deals with American Publishers which result in almost zero income being paid out from mechanicals but of course American publishing companies do the same when a European artist or Asian artist has a hit over here. Kharma.

Its impossible to for small to medium acts to renegotiate this and even power houses acts just accept a minimal up front lump sum or overseas tour support instead.

But once you are there, the merchandising revenue makes up for it. No one stole your song under this scenario but its essentially the same exact thing. But look at the outcome! Blues bands in Boston play clubs for costs, if that. They record a cd and local indies give it away on college radio and on college campuses. GIVE IT AWAY FOR FREE! Why? Because 60% of the students in Boston are foreigners with $$$$. These kids follow the band and spend money on BS items which make the band more money than the cd. Then the band follows the kids when they go home and they are surprised because suddenly the7y are treated like mega rockstars in countries like France because of the students and their following! These bands make 8 0of their revenue in performing and merchandising overseas. Then they come home and their parents say get a real job! its insane.

User avatar
Casual Madman
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 2205
Joined: Nov 2013
Location: Garland TX

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby Casual Madman » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Point missed again. I don't think you're capable of seeing it.

User avatar
bornagaincarvinite
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 2010

re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby bornagaincarvinite » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:23 pm

I see the point more clearly than you know. What you can not accept is that there are more than one way to address it and none of these ways are wrong. To each their own and good luck and wishing success with each choice.

User avatar
ElfDude
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10581
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: In and around the lake

Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby ElfDude » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:45 pm

bornagaincarvinite wrote:
Thanks ElfDude, we are now even for the ap11!!!!


That went right over my head. Sorry, I can be dense at times. Just ask my wife!
Did you give me an AP11 a while back?
Aries A6H, CS6M, SH445, Contour 66, AE185, DC135, CT4M, Bolt, SH225, LB76F, Nomad, VT16 Head, V410, Pro Bass 100
Midlife Crisis on Facebook
The Tri-Chevys on Facebook

User avatar
amon
Gold Carvinite
Gold Carvinite
Posts: 1080
Joined: Oct 2012

Re: re: A message from Frank Gambale

Postby amon » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:19 pm

Casual Madman wrote:Point missed again. I don't think you're capable of seeing it.


Image


Return to Pro Players

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests