Gibson Woes...

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spudmunkey
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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby spudmunkey » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:14 pm

I'm getting used to the screws on the back. I mean...the ferrules on the back don't bother me on my CS6 when most have the stop-tail and no disruption on the back. :think: I think, with certain (more modern) aesthetics, I think the streamlined look could work really well...however this isn't one of those cases. i really feel like all of the things they wanted to work into the "high performance" les Pauls should be on a more more modern design...a stand-alone model.

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby ElfDude » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:03 am

I sure do like this one though...

Orange-Gibson_n.jpg
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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby Treadplatedual » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:40 am

ElfDude wrote:I sure do like this one though...

Orange-Gibson_n.jpg


Amen to that. P90s make it great :)
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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby ElfDude » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:07 am

Treadplatedual wrote:
ElfDude wrote:I sure do like this one though...

Orange-Gibson_n.jpg


Amen to that. P90s make it great :)


But I'll settle for this one. :)

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:27 am

They should do a special run like this one:

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby wickid » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:50 am

UnexplodedCow wrote:They should do a special run like this one:

Image


Played thusly ... :mrgreen:
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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby Doctor Turn » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:36 am

Ah, The Log, the axe that started it all, leading finally to the Les Paul that we all know.

And elf, yeah, those 2018 Classics are pretty sweet (that is a Classic, right?). I really like the Pelham Blue specimens as well.

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby DesmoBob » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:34 pm

wickid wrote:
UnexplodedCow wrote:They should do a special run like this one:

Image


Played thusly ... :mrgreen:
(Linked to post, since its an attached pic, and doesn't quote readily.)

ROFL :laughhard:

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby Doctor Turn » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:46 am

Credit where credit is due--this Les Paul Special is freakin bitchin! Brand new special limited item, even has Custom Buckers rather than the dreaded BB's and (much nicer than BB's) 57's.
This.
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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby GuitFiddle » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:17 pm

Very cool guitar but somewhat strange due to the neck pickup placement. The older LP DCs were 24-fretters, either as an intended feature or because they couldn't put the pickup in the 22-fret location due to removing too much meat from the neck tenon (I suspect the latter), but this one rides the 22-fret wave with a 24-fret pickup placement like a lot of SGs. Interesting.
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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby ZooHead » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:05 am

Contrary to popular belief Les did not design the Gibson Les Paul. His designs had neck through construction.

" Les Paul is considered to be the designer of the Les Paul Guitar. I don't think so. Les Paul was a visionary and an innovator. A proponent of neck through body design & other radical ideas for his day. It is hard for me to believe that he would design an electric guitar that adopted all the old Gibson style jazz box designs. From the bulky, neck joint to the archtop body and the traditional Italian Florentine cutaway, it's all just a little too reminiscent of guitars that Gibson had been putting out for 20 years before the Les Paul model appeared.

I submit that Les Paul had little to do with designing the guitar. After all, it's an exact copy of the old Gibson archtop acoustic design that was just made smaller and solid. Personally I don't like the sound of a Les Paul unless it's in the hands of a master like Zack Wylde or Slash. I can't believe they are playing Gibson made instruments, I would bet money they are using custom made guitars." Ed Roman-Former Director of Domestic Marketing and Artist Relations Manager for Gibson/Steinberger

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby Doctor Turn » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:10 pm

Ed Roman lol. The Gibson Rant King, and owner of one of the funniest Guitar Retail Sites.
ZooHead wrote:Contrary to popular belief Les did not design the Gibson Les Paul. His designs had neck through construction.


Most who think seriously about that kind of thing know that it was initially more of an endorsement with some input, then a hodepodge. When you get to the Norlin era Signature SH, and the Recording Series, you're dealing more with a Lester Paul idea in purer form.

You can hate on the Henry Krustowitz years all you'd like (rightfully.. the prices vs the quality control is silly), but the rest of the rant is silliness and old news. You're going to attack the Gibson LP of the 50's and early 60's, and the rest of Classic era Gibson?

There's nothing there but angry words on a page. The looming impact of the sum total of Gibson's wonderful guitar remains, cemented in countless hours of immortal music.

Also--there is no inherent "betterness" in a neck thru in any aspect of the guitar aside from heel contour... it doesn't sustain better (in fact it comes in third in the sustain race), it breaks most ominously of all the joints, it's just a guitar, there's nothing superior about it. The old eighties/nineties fixation on neck thru's went out with . . . Flock of Seagulls style hair.
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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby ZooHead » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:16 pm

With all due respect Doc, you agreed with me at first and then ranted against Ed Roman.

I love my LP, but don't play it much these days because I keep hitting the switch by accident.

You know Gibson wanted to name the SG after Les but he wouldn't go for it.

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby Doctor Turn » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:46 pm

ZooHead wrote:With all due respect Doc, you agreed with me at first and then ranted against Ed Roman.

I love my LP, but don't play it much these days because I keep hitting the switch by accident.

You know Gibson wanted to name the SG after Les but he wouldn't go for it.


I'm not sure what you said I agreed with aside from Henry and his prices, I'm just laughing at the industrial silliness of Ed Roman, and the notion that Les Paul would never use anything with a single cut or not a neck thru (as though it's some design proof of superiority). Roman's rant is just derpy, and his words land like impotent paper airplanes against the awesome legacy of Gibson historically. His animosity can only be that of the Former Employee. If he wants to criticize Gib today, all fine. But his critique of the LPitself, and Gibson's contributions to the guitar in general thru the clutch years of the 50's and 60's, is like a gnat trying hammer against the entire continent of Europe.

The SG was initially called the Les Paul, because the original single cut version just wasn't selling. So the SG shape was initially known as the Les Paul, but Les didn't like it (poor taste on that count I think--it was another iconic home run imho) so it became simply the new Gibson Solid Guitar, aka SG. Like the ES.. "Electric Spanish." Some of the most boring initial appellations in the bidniz!
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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby ZooHead » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:17 am

Doctor Turn wrote:it was initially more of an endorsement with some input


This set the tone for "endorsement" in the future. I guess this is more of a statement on lack of truth in advertising.

It sounds like Les was pretty cantankerous, leaving Gibson for a couple of years at one point, pushing them to rescue Epiphone, and making them take his name off the SG and so forth. I had an SG once, many years ago, it had a rubbery neck.

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby ZooHead » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:38 am

I think the sustain thing needs some clarification.

Lutherie Myth/Science:
Neck Joint Type and Sustain

Conventional wisdom has it that the construction of neck joint of the instrument influences the sustain of the instrument. Neck through construction (for electric guitars and basses) is considered to offer the best sustain, followed by set neck (i.e. glued on) construction. Bolt-on necks are considered to offer the worst sustain. A recent experiment in this area suggests that this order may be backwards and that folks can't hear the difference in sustain based on neck joint type anyway.

Last updated: Saturday, November 25, 2017


Although the connection between neck joint type and instrument sustain is usually mentioned in the context of solid body electric guitars, it is often mentioned when speaking of acoustic guitars as well. I could find no formal research on this subject at all - no instrumentation and measurement studies, no formal listening evaluations. A recent study[1] performed power analysis, spectrographic analysis, and listening evaluation on a series of purpose-built instruments. The study was based on only a small population of instruments but it was reasonably well controlled. The power analysis results suggest that the relationship between sustain and neck joint type is the reverse of the conventional wisdom on the subject. Longest sustain was associated with bolt-on necks and shortest sustain with neck through construction. The study also included listening evaluations of recordings of single notes. Subjects could not detect differences in sustain among neck through, set neck and bolt-on neck configurations.

Although limited in scope, this study does suggest that correlation between sustain and neck joint type may not be of practical significance.


1. Mottola, R.M. “Sustain and Electric Guitar Neck Joint Type”
American Lutherie #91, 2007, p. 52.

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby Doctor Turn » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:40 am

ZooHead wrote:I think the sustain thing needs some clarification.

Lutherie Myth/Science:
Neck Joint Type and Sustain

Conventional wisdom has it that the construction of neck joint of the instrument influences the sustain of the instrument. Neck through construction (for electric guitars and basses) is considered to offer the best sustain, followed by set neck (i.e. glued on) construction. Bolt-on necks are considered to offer the worst sustain. A recent experiment in this area suggests that this order may be backwards and that folks can't hear the difference in sustain based on neck joint type anyway.

Last updated: Saturday, November 25, 2017


Although the connection between neck joint type and instrument sustain is usually mentioned in the context of solid body electric guitars, it is often mentioned when speaking of acoustic guitars as well. I could find no formal research on this subject at all - no instrumentation and measurement studies, no formal listening evaluations. A recent study[1] performed power analysis, spectrographic analysis, and listening evaluation on a series of purpose-built instruments. The study was based on only a small population of instruments but it was reasonably well controlled. The power analysis results suggest that the relationship between sustain and neck joint type is the reverse of the conventional wisdom on the subject. Longest sustain was associated with bolt-on necks and shortest sustain with neck through construction. The study also included listening evaluations of recordings of single notes. Subjects could not detect differences in sustain among neck through, set neck and bolt-on neck configurations.

Although limited in scope, this study does suggest that correlation between sustain and neck joint type may not be of practical significance.


1. Mottola, R.M. “Sustain and Electric Guitar Neck Joint Type”
American Lutherie #91, 2007, p. 52.


Exactly--I've linked that article here multiple times in multiple discussions; making my specific point that there is nothing inherently superior about neck-thru's, breaking the neck and body into more pieces than practically necessary and essentially negating the wings of the guitar in playing a part in the sonic equation as the bridge makes no contact with the vast mass of the body.

I've seen these studies and participated in these discussions here on the board (and pointed out that the differences in Length of Sustain are completely undetectable by the human ear.. although the percussive differences are absolutely detectable and render neck thrus in my estimation sterile..) and my aim in bringing it up is to combat this whopper:

Ed Roman wrote:A proponent of neck through body design & other radical ideas for his day. It is hard for me to believe that he would design an electric guitar that adopted all the old Gibson style jazz box designs. From the bulky, neck joint to the archtop body and the traditional Italian Florentine cutaway, it's all just a little too reminiscent of guitars that Gibson had been putting out for 20 years before the Les Paul model appeared.


As for the rest of Roman's attack on Gibson's Les Paul/Gibson historically... he's entitled to his opinion, but I wonder if Ed thinks Les endorsed a guitar he loathed, and if so why does he believe such a weird thing?

As for the neck joint of a set neck, despite my love for these kinds of guitars and their sound, I still don't understand why the joint has to be stepped the way it is, shelving below the pocket like that. Once Mark Kiesel started designing his own neck pockets for set neck guitars, it was Axecess before Axecess. My old 150 has what I consider what should be a standard set neck joint these days--these guitars have no tendency towards breakage or warping, and hold their necks as well as any other if not better:

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby Cynical » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:33 am

Doctor Turn wrote:Exactly--I've linked that article here multiple times in multiple discussions; making my specific point that there is nothing inherently superior about neck-thru's, breaking the neck and body into more pieces than practically necessary and essentially negating the wings of the guitar in playing a part in the sonic equation as the bridge makes no contact with the vast mass of the body.

Not quite accurate; Jackson and BC Rich USA neck-throughs are built so that the bridge posts are anchored in the body wings, not the neck-through blank.

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby ZooHead » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:38 am

You make a good point, I don't think anyone would suggest Les would do anything he didn't want to.

And unlike later endorsers, he played the actual guitar Gibson sold.

PS: Ed wasn't a bad guy, and he had more stories to tell than hours in the day.

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Re: Gibson Woes...

Postby ZooHead » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:41 am

Cynical wrote:
Doctor Turn wrote:Exactly--I've linked that article here multiple times in multiple discussions; making my specific point that there is nothing inherently superior about neck-thru's, breaking the neck and body into more pieces than practically necessary and essentially negating the wings of the guitar in playing a part in the sonic equation as the bridge makes no contact with the vast mass of the body.

Not quite accurate; Jackson and BC Rich USA neck-throughs are built so that the bridge posts are anchored in the body wings, not the neck-through blank.

It look like my Kiesel Carve top is built this way as well.


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