Bit The Bullet

Expecting some new gear from Kiesel Guitars? Post here!

Moderators: Kevio, ElfDude, JesseM, RockCrue, soundchick, ChrisH, peb, Mike Jones, Bundy

User avatar
ElfDude
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10683
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: In and around the lake

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby ElfDude » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:07 pm

This story saddens me.
Aries A6H, CS6M, SH445, Contour 66, AE185, DC135, CT4M, Bolt, SH225, LB76F, Nomad, VT16 Head, V410, Pro Bass 100
Midlife Crisis on Facebook
The Tri-Chevys on Facebook

User avatar
arahobob
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 3924
Joined: Oct 2012
Location: Oakhurst, NJ

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby arahobob » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:16 pm

What a rotten turn of events.

That's a wild flame top, but let's be honest.
Kiesel posts up burl all the goddamm time on fb.

I've never seen them share burl like this.
Never.

I'm sure they have their reasons but this just comes across poorly.
Current Carvins:
2010 Bolt (Candy Red Metallic)
2013 Bolt Plus (Koa)
2016 Black n Blue VSEVEN
2017 TT SCB6

Wish List
Some sort of multiscale 6 HSS with RAD ASH
JB Numbers Guitar (July sale has given me the itch!)

User avatar
Doctor Turn
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 4796
Joined: Aug 2015
Location: NYC, sans rock clubs and 48th St.
Links/Contact:

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby Doctor Turn » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:50 pm

It really is pretty much hard to defend from any reasonable, objective standpoint free of bias.

A man has in his mind a picture of what he wants, which is a burled instrument. They send him a flamed instrument with some burl afterthought in small patches. Which is nobody's definition of a burled instrument. Kiesel typically doesn't traffic in weak examples of figuring with burled maple in particular. Their burled maple tops are friggin BURLED. The top used on this CS is an unusual hybrid specimen of the type you really don't see very much. There's clearly more flame than burl in that axe.

The learning experience for Kiesel oughta be that when you send in "mixed" figure tops like this, which are neither this nor that (or are at least more of what the customer didn't order) which blend in a kind of figure in high percentage that the customer did NOT request, regardless of its perceived subjective beauty, or the opinion of its maker who may or may not have picked the top out, you are operating in direct conflict with the clients specs. It doesn't matter of Apollo picked out the top--it's not Apollo's guitar, it's going to be the guy who worked and saved and psyched himself up on the picture that he had in his mind's guitar.. whose order was suddenly overridden and deflated by... the opinions of others who neither paid for the guitar or have to play the guitar.

But just curious: is option two here:

1. Take delivery of the original guitar
2. Order another model with different options
3. Request a refund and forfeit the option of buying from us again in the futureā€

The ability to get your CS rebuilt? Or are they saying "You have to keep this guitar or choose another model for your rebuild?"
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

User avatar
spudmunkey
Elite Carvinite
Elite Carvinite
Posts: 16082
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby spudmunkey » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:21 pm

Yeah, that 2nd option sounds like it COULD be reasonable, but I'm not sure what the limitations are. Perhaps they just won't build another burled top? I could kinda see that as still being reasonable because otherwise people would just get the same thing built over and over again until they get the top that's juuuuuust right for their particular taste. With that said, I do think this top is so far away from what 'burled maple' typically looks like, that I think it warrants an exception.

It appears Kiesel is approaching customer service from a bit of a backwards direction.

Here's an example: the Amazon Go store in seattle. If you're unfamiliar, it's a concept store where you scan your phone when you walk in, you shop, and just walk out. You don't have to "check out". They designed their whole customer experience with technology to cater to honest customers. The systems they have in place are designed to be as accurate as possible, but stopped short of implementing anything that would hinder 99% of the customers to "catch" the 1%. I mean, hell...if you buy something you didn't want, you just "return" it from the app and you get a refund. If you don't want it, they don't want you to pay for it. They don't even have a mechanism in place to even take your item back (yet).

Now, obviously that's a test case/concept and likely doesn't make them any money (yet)...but take a store like Nordstroms. They are known for their legendary customer service. My girlfriend will knowingly pay more for the same pair of shoes there compared to Macy's or Sears, knowing that if there's ANY issue, they will take care of her. There was an article I read once where a journalist wanted to test their commitment to the customer experience. They walked in 5 minutes before closing, and went to the shoe department. They looked around, asked to try on several pairs. The cashiers didn't "count down" their drawers, they didn't prep for closing, people in other departments manned their stations, and after about 45 minutes of never feeling rushed in their shoe shopping, the journalist decided to buy a single pair of shoes. Then, as they brought their purchase to the counter, the salesperson asked, "I think you need a new bag to go with those shoes. Would you like to take a look as some of the new arrivals?"

That's how you keep customers for life. There will always be people who try to find loopholes or game a system, but when your system is designed around them, it can leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

User avatar
Doctor Turn
Platinum Carvinite
Platinum Carvinite
Posts: 4796
Joined: Aug 2015
Location: NYC, sans rock clubs and 48th St.
Links/Contact:

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby Doctor Turn » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:04 pm

Absolutely.

The more I read the choices, the more it's clear that the OP is being punished for not favoring the company's (or more likely, someone in particular within that company's) opinion about the guitar, which was built in place the kind of guitar that was ordered. "You don't like this one better?" (raises handkerchief to nose, and points) "Go, and do not befoul this fair commerce again."

There's an element of scolding in the reply to OP that baffles me.

Dude didn't want a flame top. They sent him a mega flame top.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

Abdababda
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 165
Joined: Mar 2007

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby Abdababda » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:38 am

Doctor Turn wrote:A man has in his mind a picture of what he wants, which is a burled instrument. They send him a flamed instrument with some burl afterthought in small patches. Which is nobody's definition of a burled instrument. Kiesel typically doesn't traffic in weak examples of figuring with burled maple in particular. Their burled maple tops are friggin BURLED. The top used on this CS is an unusual hybrid specimen of the type you really don't see very much. There's clearly more flame than burl in that axe.


Exactly right. Big O wanted burled top and paid extra for it--that is what he should have.

protovack
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr 2018

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby protovack » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:33 pm

I'm a new Kiesel customer, and this is an absolutely horrific story.

That top is a disaster. It's not a burl top. If it's supposed to be a flame top, its the worst bookmatch I've ever seen. I cannot imagine they would even allow that guitar to be finished if after the staining, it looked like that.

The "options" presented to you are possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

1. Just take it and like it (umm, excuse me?)
2. Order something else with different options (What? That doesn't even make sense.)
3. Take a refund and be black-listed (almost unbelievable that they would even say this).

If this guitar they built you is so "popular" then they should have no trouble selling it as a GIS after you return it.

Frankly, I'm appalled. I mean how hard is it to say,

"Dear Customer, we understand you ordered a burl top and the guitar you received appears to be more of a flame top that is not well bookmatched. We would like to fix this situation immediately. We will be sending you a pre-paid shipping label. We will also be reaching out to you shortly to have a phone conversation about exactly what went wrong, and how we can get it exactly right on the re-build."

That's the way it should've gone down. This is not a well executed build that you just happen to not "like". It is a poorly executed build, period, in my mind. And it appears to me, that in this case they are using the fact that it is a highly custom guitar as a way to just avoid the hassle of having to rebuild.

That is an extremely disingenuous business practice and if they don't make this right I would go directly to the better business bureau. Threatening to black-list you over their own mistake is bordering on pathological behavior, and I would have no qualms about getting a consumer advocacy organization involved, if that is truly their position.

Playing devils advocate here, is it possible that they perceived you as demanding and difficult to work with, due to you wanting custom electronics using your own supplies? I don't see why it would be a big deal, and it has NOTHING to do with the botched top, but it may have played a role in the response you received.

Still, if I was CEO, I'd pull my quality control person aside and grill them for this. I mean who would give the green light on this guitar? It looks NOTHING like any other picture of a burl top I've ever seen. It's a 98% flame maple top for god's sake!! And a poorly matched one to boot!

protovack
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr 2018

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby protovack » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:41 pm

The more I think about this, the less and less sense it makes.

From what I know of Kiesel guitars, the CEO and employees really seem to know wood. I mean, I've watched the company CEO on youtube personally hold up examples of burl instruments and show us directly how they are done. We've all seen him hold up a burled top to the camera and get excited about it. So I just cannot believe that any person could have, in their right mind, looked at an order sheet for a burled maple top, and instead put this top on the guitar. The fact that they mention in their email, someone "picked the wood from the reserve, and thought it was fine"---this person, whoever it was, needs to account for the wood selection. For them to completely screw that up seems way out of character. Are we to believe that the company policy is now, that you cannot expect to receive the top you order? If you order flame maple, you may instead receive a burled top and you cannot return it? No, something isn't right.

It just doesn't make sense. There is something fishy going on here. We don't have the whole story. Someone made an error on the line, something. There needs to be some sort of investigation into how this error occurred, not to blame an employee, but to find and fix the issue so it doesn't happen again.

Issue number 1--the guy who looked at the order sheet and picked the wood. Talk to him, find out if there was a reason he picked it, or if it was literally just a mistake. Those are two VERY different scenarios. Did they think he didn't want a heavily burled top? Was something mis-communicated in email at some point?

I work in healthcare, and when we make errors, it's serious business. Everybody gets in a room and communicates until the errors are found and fixed, no exceptions. And this situation bears the unmistakable scent of an error which was then brazenly mis-handled.

deecameronbell
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Mar 2018

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby deecameronbell » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:49 am

Anyone have the pics OP posted of the guitar? really curious here and seems like they were deleted.

User avatar
spudmunkey
Elite Carvinite
Elite Carvinite
Posts: 16082
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby spudmunkey » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:27 am

deecameronbell wrote:Anyone have the pics OP posted of the guitar? really curious here and seems like they were deleted.


Nothing appears to be deleted. They are all visible for me on two different devices. Here's one of them.
Kiesel Angle_zpshiyb6usc.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

deecameronbell
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Mar 2018

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby deecameronbell » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:07 am

spudmunkey wrote:
deecameronbell wrote:Anyone have the pics OP posted of the guitar? really curious here and seems like they were deleted.


Nothing appears to be deleted. They are all visible for me on two different devices. Here's one of them.
Kiesel Angle_zpshiyb6usc.jpg


Oh true sorry they just must all be blocked on my work computer.

Big O
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Jun 2017

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby Big O » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:36 pm

I appreciate all of the replies and comments on this thread and build. I just thought I stop back in and see if there was any recent comments on the thread and there was.

Although the guitar is not exactly what I wanted and I am disappointed with regard to paying an extra $400 for the burl option (I would have chosen a quilt top instead knowing how the top came out), I now have trouble playing the guitar since it is such a pristine, fine work of art in its own right and I don't want to mess up the finish. I very gingerly handle the guitar and am very careful with it. The playability is just right on for me with the low action, flat fretboard but reasonable hefty neck (not quite as thick as my baseball neck Gibson LP). If a great playing guitar is what I would like to obtain again, I would order another CS6 with a thick neck if I could get it, but with a solid color so I won't worry so much about messing up the finish.

protovack
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Apr 2018

Re: Bit The Bullet

Postby protovack » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Glad its a good playing guitar. Wouldn't that be funny if it became a favorite after all :)


Return to The Waiting Room

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests