Holdsworth HHX Club

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derrylgabel
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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby derrylgabel » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:45 pm

roger c wrote:Why would the Zero fret be taller than the first fret. i don't understand.... maybe i am missing something.

Bingo! My sentiments exactly. This does not make sense. It would be like buying a car with one tire bigger than the rest hahaha!!! Then you have to ask the dealership, "Hey man, can you change that tire out to match the rest LOL!!!

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glennfin
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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby glennfin » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:47 pm

The zero fret is in place (instead) of the nut. It has to be taller... If the zero fret was the same height as the first fret, the string would be touching the first fret. :?

Take a look at a guitar that has a standard slotted nut. If the slots in the nut weren't higher than the first fret, the string would buzz on the first fret when played open.

Think about it...

roger c wrote:Why would the Zero fret be taller than the first fret. i don't understand.... maybe i am missing something.

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derrylgabel
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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby derrylgabel » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:06 pm

glennfin wrote:The zero fret is in place (instead) of the nut. It has to be taller... If the zero fret was the same height as the first fret, the string would be touching the first fret. :?

Take a look at a guitar that has a standard slotted nut. If the slots in the nut weren't higher than the first fret, the string would buzz on the first fret when played open.

Think about it...

roger c wrote:Why would the Zero fret be taller than the first fret. i don't understand.... maybe i am missing something.


Are all the frets on your guitar the same height? Probably so. Place a capo on the first fret. Now imagine that is your zero fret. This is basically what we are talking about. The zero fret should be the same height as all the other frets. That is one of the advantages to having a zero fret, super low action. Remember me saying that Bill Delap, who is a guitar luthier guru and who use to build Allan's guitars agreed. He said it should be level and the same height as all the other frets. It should not be higher. That is unless you like higher action.

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derrylgabel
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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby derrylgabel » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:38 pm

Here's some video of the new guitar. It's from my latest instructional DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST9g3-OYifc

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purpledc
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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby purpledc » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:52 pm

Ok this is what I dont understand. Isnt a zero frets purpose to almost act as the nut? in this case you would want the zero fret to be higher than the next fret so that the guitar doesnt fret out? I mean when you have any other guitar the nut is always higher than the first fret. Am I missing something?

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derrylgabel
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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby derrylgabel » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:56 pm

purpledc wrote:Ok this is what I dont understand. Isnt a zero frets purpose to almost act as the nut? in this case you would want the zero fret to be higher than the next fret so that the guitar doesnt fret out? I mean when you have any other guitar the nut is always higher than the first fret. Am I missing something?

The zero fret acts as the nut, yes. It would not fret out if it were the same height because of were the saddles are set. They are set slightly higher. That's why if you put a capo on the first fret or any other fret for that matter it does not fret out.

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Python
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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby Python » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:19 pm

Here's some video of the new guitar. It's from my latest instructional DVD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST9g3-OYifc


Very niiice! This new guitar is proving to become a "jewel" in the Carvin line up.

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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby Tabare777 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:42 am

derrylgabel wrote:Here's some video of the new guitar. It's from my latest instructional DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST9g3-OYifc


Beautiful guitar Derryl, I'm going to have to get this DVD to go with the rest of them, even though I'm still working through OS3. :oops:
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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby secondstring » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:45 am

That is hands down the most beautiful HH I've seen thus far. (for my tastes, at least)

Thanks so much for sharing your video clip. I really enjoyed that!

I love my old Tele's and ALL the classic guitars. Danelectros, Gretsch's, Strats, Les Pauls, 335's...you name it, it turns me on.

But there's something unique about a headless guitar.

I feel like it's a visual representation of the desire to REACH.

Getting a little long-winded here...but in my mind, a big part of Allan Holdsworth strives to play like Charlie Parker, albeit less "American". Still, a lot of what he does is in the spirit of Bird's desire to attain new levels of musical awareness.

In fact, when Parker's bandmates in Earl Hines' band wanted to goad him into stretching out in his solos, they used to say to him, "Reach! Reach!"

I'm really gratified to see that companies like Steinberger, Klein, and now Carvin, are willing to "reach!"

(Wow...I should prohibited from posting after 2am...)

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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby glennfin » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:34 am

Of course it has to be higher, absolutely! The zero fret and or nut IS higher than the first actual fret. Just to be sure, I checked all 11 of my guitars last night including the Steinberger (zero fret, no nut) On every guitar the nut (and zero fret) is definately higher than the first fret.... plain as day.


purpledc wrote:Ok this is what I dont understand. Isnt a zero frets purpose to almost act as the nut? in this case you would want the zero fret to be higher than the next fret so that the guitar doesnt fret out? I mean when you have any other guitar the nut is always higher than the first fret. Am I missing something?

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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby derrylgabel » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:15 am

glennfin wrote:Of course it has to be higher, absolutely! The zero fret and or nut IS higher than the first actual fret. Just to be sure, I checked all 11 of my guitars last night including the Steinberger (zero fret, no nut) On every guitar the nut (and zero fret) is definately higher than the first fret.... plain as day.


purpledc wrote:Ok this is what I dont understand. Isnt a zero frets purpose to almost act as the nut? in this case you would want the zero fret to be higher than the next fret so that the guitar doesnt fret out? I mean when you have any other guitar the nut is always higher than the first fret. Am I missing something?


Okay, I understand but do you get my point? If you put a capo on the first fret and imagine that is the zero fret it works and you get lower action. For the record, my Steinberger's zero fret was the same height as well as a friend of mine's Viger. Most guitars I have played with nuts and locking nuts are higher than the frets. I typically I remove the shem from behind the locking nut to lower it. That's what I did on my ST300.

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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby mikeymac » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:56 am

glennfin and purpledc,

With all due respect - and I mean no malice - you guys just aren't thinking this through. If the nut had to be higher than the 1st fret, then the 1st fret would also have to be higher than the 2nd fret, and the 2nd higher than the 3rd, etc. all the way up the neck.

On a guitar that is set up properly, the nut slots are cut level with the 1st fret in order for the action over the lower frets to be correct - in other words, so that the strings don't have to be stretched so much when pressed against the frets that they are stretched "out of tune". This is a big problem on cheap guitars, and even on some higher quality instruments, particularly on the G string when it's pressed against the first fret.

This is why a guitar that sounds in tune when playing a first position G chord can sound so out of tune when playing a first position E chord; that G# note on the 3rd/G string gets pushed sharp on the first fret ... this means that the nut slot needs to be lowered for that string.

And Darryl has already said it twice, but you guys don't get it: capo a guitar anywhere up the fretboard, and suddenly THAT fret becomes the NUT...and yet it's the same height as all the other frets, BUT YOUR STRINGS DON'T FRET OUT. This is because of the break angle of the string along the neck from that fret to the bridge (assuming the action is set up properly).

I've built a lot of guitars from Warmoth parts, and have cut the nuts and set up all the necks myself. I've also had to lower the nut slots on most of my Carvins (and other production guitars) because the nut slots were left a little high at the factory...causing the guitar not to play properly, or in tune on the lower frets (and actually causing higher action than necessary all up and down the neck). What Darryl is saying is absolutely correct.

Please think about this before you write another response... :think:

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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby glennfin » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:26 am

Sorry, but as I said, I looked very closely at all 11 of my guitars last night. Every single one of them has the nut higher than the first fret. Gibsons, Fenders, Rickenbackers, Godin and Martin, ALL of them have the nut slightly higher than the first fret. Are you telling me they are all wrong?? of course not. They are all setup correctly

What about neck relief? It's not just saddle height. A neck is not supposed to be setup perfectly flat.

Forget about the capo for a moment.. lets talk open strings....
If the nut is the same height as the first fret, the saddles would have to be adjusted high enough so that the strings when played open wouldn't buzz on the first fret.... If that was the case, the action on the upper neck would be unusually high.

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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby derrylgabel » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:40 am

glennfin wrote:Sorry, but as I said, I looked very closely at all 11 of my guitars last night. Every single one of them has the nut higher than the first fret. Gibsons, Fenders, Rickenbackers, Godin and Martin, ALL of them have the nut slightly higher than the first fret. Are you telling me they are all wrong?? of course not. They are all setup correctly

What about neck relief? It's not just saddle height. A neck is not supposed to be setup perfectly flat.

Forget about the capo for a moment.. lets talk open strings....
If the nut is the same height as the first fret, the saddles would have to be adjusted high enough so that the strings when played open wouldn't buzz on the first fret.... If that was the case, the action on the upper neck would be unusually high.

So why didn't my strings buzz at the first fret when I lowered the nut on my HH2 ( that I filed down) or evey guitar that I have had with a locking nut? Of coarse if I were to have lowered it below the first fret THEN it would fret out or buzz but it is level.
I believe you when you say the nuts on all your guitars are higher. Most likely any music store you go in or most guitars you play with nuts will have a higher nut. Am I saying that is wrong? No. If you like a higher action then it's good for you. From what I understand, Viger Guitars started making their guitars with a zero nut so the action would be as low as possible. That was the main reason.
Is having the nut on the HH2 higher than the other frets wrong? Not really but it defeats the purpose. If you like higher action then it's right for you. Like I said, Bill Delap who use to re fret Allan's guitars and then later started making him guitars said that the zero fret was the same height as the other frets because Allan likes very low action. Here's Bill's email if you want to ask him delapguitars@mac.com
Okay, I'm done trying to make my point. I give up... uncle!
BTW, taking some of the forward bow out of the neck will lower the action through out the guitar including at the first fret. When I got my H2T(which has a standard nut ) it seemed that the nut was a little high but when I tightened the truss rod and took some of the forward bow out it made it right...to me. Now the action at the first fret is the equivalent to fretting a string.

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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby roger c » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:04 am

I don't think it makes sense to compare Gibson, fender, Ric, etc with a headless HH for the purpose of 0 fret analysis since they don't have a 0 fret.

The capo analogy can't be ignored either since it does not cause fret buzz and acts as 0 fret.

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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby morph » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:59 am

Hey Derryl-- it would be interesting to hear how you find the HH compares to your HF, in terms of tone, neck, and other ways.

And another question. Would you be happy with the HH as your only guitar? IOW, for your playing style, is there anything that the HH doesn't do as well as other guitars, for you? (Aside from the obvious, like "no Floyd, etc.")

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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby derrylgabel » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:55 pm

morph wrote:Hey Derryl-- it would be interesting to hear how you find the HH compares to your HF, in terms of tone, neck, and other ways.

And another question. Would you be happy with the HH as your only guitar? IOW, for your playing style, is there anything that the HH doesn't do as well as other guitars, for you? (Aside from the obvious, like "no Floyd, etc.")

Hey guys, I tried tightening my truss rod a quarter turn after my last post and the guitar plays even better. I normally do this but I assumed Albert had done this per my request when setting up the guitar. At any rate, I love this guitar. I plan on getting a few more. If it were my only guitar I would be fine with it. It sounds amazing. I'd like to get one with a flame koa top next.

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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby glennfin » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:29 pm

It makes sense because the zero fret and nut are from a technical standpoint, the same thing.


roger c wrote:I don't think it makes sense to compare Gibson, fender, Ric, etc with a headless HH for the purpose of 0 fret analysis since they don't have a 0 fret.
Last edited by glennfin on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby glennfin » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:46 pm

First of all, I apologize for adding to the hijacking of this thread.

I'll just make one final comment and be done...

I think we agree that a zero fret and the nut are basically acomplishing the same thing, right?

Try this experiment as I just did on all my guitars including the Steinberger.... (zero fret)

Sitdown with the guitar in playing position, look at the edge of the neck, where the binding and or position dot markers would be so you can see the string to fret distance.

Press and release an F note on the low E string, (first fret) Notice the distance between the string and first fret.

Now fret and hold that F note. Now with your right hand, press and release an F# on the next fret. Notice anything funny? Not the same distance as fretting the first fret! in fact, it's a noticible difference!

Must be a reason for that... :roll:

Sorry to ruffle feathers... just sayin :)

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Re: re: Holdsworth HHX Club

Postby glennfin » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:49 pm

No, you're not missing anything, in fact, you're the only one that gets it! :D

purpledc wrote:Ok this is what I dont understand. Isnt a zero frets purpose to almost act as the nut? in this case you would want the zero fret to be higher than the next fret so that the guitar doesnt fret out? I mean when you have any other guitar the nut is always higher than the first fret. Am I missing something?


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