Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

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Toptube
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Toptube » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:00 pm

The new pricing on neck options doesn't seem to make much sense. I'd love to hear a real explanation of it. Popular neck wood combos seem to be significantly more expensive. Up with other stuff which used to be priced more than aforementioned stuff, is still the same price and therefore, about the same price. I know that's confusing, but the pricing scheme doesn't make sense to me. The 3 piece necks cost more than I thought they would.

Fret prices are strange, too. Stainless is standard. But only the one size. Other sizes are an upcharge------now more than EVO Gold, which used to cost more. Doesn't make sense.

I mean, I'll take cheaper EVO Gold, absolutely :shh:

A list of fretboard options and pricing, would be nice.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Omsong » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:08 am

Toptube wrote:The new pricing on neck options doesn't seem to make much sense. I'd love to hear a real explanation of it. Popular neck wood combos seem to be significantly more expensive. Up with other stuff which used to be priced more than aforementioned stuff, is still the same price and therefore, about the same price. I know that's confusing, but the pricing scheme doesn't make sense to me. The 3 piece necks cost more than I thought they would.

Fret prices are strange, too. Stainless is standard. But only the one size. Other sizes are an upcharge------now more than EVO Gold, which used to cost more. Doesn't make sense.

I mean, I'll take cheaper EVO Gold, absolutely :shh:

A list of fretboard options and pricing, would be nice.


I saw that, too, and was confused. In some cases, I guess Jeff felt it was necessary to institute major price increases but bury them in the options so that the base model prices wouldn't have to change that much. The recent increases would have added a couple of hundred dollars to my build. As such, I would have likely had to drop an option or two to keep it within budget. Such is life. Glad I ordered when I did.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:25 am

In a recent video, Jeff mentioned they they haven't raised the price of the 5 piece necks in years and years, and they finally had to do so to more accurately reflect their actual cost, and the three piece are meant to give a less expensive option. Not "cheap", but less extensive.

The frets are very strange. In more than a couple videos, Jeff made specific mention about how since stainless medium jumbo are standard now, Jumbo would also be a free upgrade. To me it doesn't make any sense that these stainless options are now more expensive than the EVO frets. I'm still thinking its some sort of error.
Last edited by spudmunkey on Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby gumbynotpokey » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:25 am

LB basses (at risk of extinction IMO) show one 3 piece neck at the same price as one 5 piece neck. And two of their other 3 piece necks are the same price as two other 5 piece necks. Go figure.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Toptube » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:52 pm

spudmunkey wrote:In a recent video, Jeff mentioned they they haven't raised the price of tree piece necks in years and years, and trey finally had to do so to more accurately reflect their actual cost, and the three piece are meant to give a less expensive option. Not "cheap", but less extensive.


For clarity, this isn't a general complaint of price increases. Its voicing confusion over the pricing that I'm seeing. 5 piece walnut with maple stripes, now costs more than 5 piece walnut with two white limba stripes. But Limba has Always been priced higher than maple. So it doesn't make sense.That's just one example of the wierdness.

Unless market price for maple is actually higher than Limba, now. Which would be nice to know. But I don't think it is, because maple being lower cost, is still reflected in the three piece necks and the fact that you can get 5 piece maple necks in a couple of configs, for the usual $150.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Greg Emm » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:19 pm

There is no rhyme or reason that I can spirit out of these price increases. 5-piece maple necks are up 50 bucks, which seems reasonable, but the 5-piece walnut with maple stripes is up $70 dollars, the 5-piece maple with walnut stripes is up $80, and the 5-piece maple with purpleheart stripes is up $20. The 5-piece walnut with purpleheart remains $260. Maybe maple's that much more expensive these days.

As for walnut necks with white limba runners, I think that will cease to be an option once the current stock of neck blanks is depleted because white limba is not as strong as the other woods Kiesel uses.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Bob77 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:30 pm

Can somebody school me on this headless guitar trend?

I tried a few vaders and a holdsworth headless at the show room. They were lightweight, but I attribute that to the fact the bodies were smaller. Are there any other advantages? They kinda felt like travel guitars to me. They were "cool" to play but I was not hugely overwhelmed.

Regardless of the advantages, headless guitars are just not for me. I cannot get over the look no matter how hard to like them. Maybe I'm too traditional, but headstocks are one of the most distinctive and beautiful parts of a guitar. For instance, I am not a big Gibson fan but I really love that gibson paddle headstock.

Anyway, just trying to get more insight into why these headless guitars are so trendy now to the point the Kiesel keeps coming up with new headless models.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Toptube » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:57 pm

Bob77 wrote:Can somebody school me on this headless guitar trend?

I tried a few vaders and a holdsworth headless at the show room. They were lightweight, but I attribute that to the fact the bodies were smaller. Are there any other advantages? They kinda felt like travel guitars to me. They were "cool" to play but I was not hugely overwhelmed.

Regardless of the advantages, headless guitars are just not for me. I cannot get over the look no matter how hard to like them. Maybe I'm too traditional, but headstocks are one of the most distinctive and beautiful parts of a guitar. For instance, I am not a big Gibson fan but I really love that gibson paddle headstock.

Anyway, just trying to get more insight into why these headless guitars are so trendy now to the point the Kiesel keeps coming up with new headless models.


Removing the headstock and tuners, saves like a pound of weight. Maybe more, depending upon the weight the the tuners used and the size of the headstock.

Also, removing weight at the headstock has generally positive effects on how a guitar hangs or balances.

Additionally, with the weight at the headstock removed, we no longer have to torque our fretting hand against all of that counterweight. It can feel weird, at first. But in the end, your fretting hand/arm will be more relaxed and I am certain there are long term benefits there, for muscle tension and repetitive stress issues.

Also, because you are missing a bunch of weight at the headstock-----indeed you can have a smaller and/or light body and still end up with a guitar which balances fine.

I'm not a guitarist, so now some bass specific comments:

Headless design seems to net some positive affects on how the strings feel and respond. The Vader 4 I ordered, I've never experienced a more positive feel on every string. And the note definition at every fret, was outstanding. I don't think that there is any one aspect, to explain this. Instead, many. (and I would guess that guitars have similar benefits). Steeper break angle at the nut. Actual length of string used, is much less (no more string material after the nut, wrapped around tuners.) Which, in terms of physics, should have effects on the string. Actual length of neck is shorter, which should mean that the neck is relatively stiffer (do not confuse overall length of the neck, with shorter scale length).

And for the bass side, the overall weight savings can be significant. Many 4 string Vaders are around 7 pounds. With the right wood choices and chambering, a 6 pound 4 string is possible. So, we are talking probably at least 1.5 pounds of savings for Vader basses, Vs. most of Kiesel's basses with headstocks (if you look at the weights of in-stock basses). With a possibility of close to 2.5 pounds. Maybe even more, if you get lucky or pay extra for choice wood.

A 7-ish pound 5 string bass with a headstock, is very rare. But if you have ever strapped on such a thing, its wonderful. A weight like that is much easier to obtain for 5 and 6 string basses, in a smaller bodied and headless design.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Doctor Turn » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:05 pm

Bob, I think there's a slim chance you're overthinking it. But I think more likely you're probably just asking the question to show your preferred distance from the idea. There's no more a "reason" to choose it than there is to choose a single cut versus a double cut. They're aesthetic choices regarding look based on buyer want.

For a gigging guitarist, hauling around a 9+ pound LP Standard, long neck fender, metal pointy, versus a 6.5 lb compact headless in a light gig bag without having to worry about knocking a head stock against anything/cracking fragile neck joints, is worth miles of relaxation and spared back and arm aches. And if you can pull the same sounds out of it that you can a full sized guitar, then why not?

I love the look of traditional paddle headstocks (there are few things I dislike as much on a guitar than those tiny little atrophied CT headstocks) as much as anyone else, and if I was going on TV to be picked up by a camera for image creation that would have legs and define me for the masses, I'd probably haul out my old Carvin, my LP or a Swede. But for a blue collar musician out there all the time, annoying gigs, gigs you really hate, gigs you wish you never did, forgettable gigs, each appearance doesn't have to be a statement of ultimate preference. Sometimes you just do what's easiest, and try to find something that looks pretty cool at the same time you give your arms and back a rest. I actually like the Osiris, and am thinking of buying one and push it into Tele world w the pups and hardware.

And YOU'RE not a Gibson fan?? Don't you have a pricey CS 330 and a 335?
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Casual Madman » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:55 pm

In his PREMIER GUITAR interview from NAMM,Jeff pointed out something I'd not considered as a headless bonus: tuning stability.

Now, I've never experienced the tuning misery that seems to be such a common complaint amongst Gibson owners - I bend like mad and never have a problem with broken-in strings - but if that's an issue for anyone, headless should resolve it. The string pull is more or less straight, no big angles up, down, or sideways.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Bob77 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:58 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:Bob, I think there's a slim chance you're overthinking it. But I think more likely you're probably just asking the question to show your preferred distance from the idea. There's no more a "reason" to choose it than there is to choose a single cut versus a double cut. They're aesthetic choices regarding look based on buyer want.

For a gigging guitarist, hauling around a 9+ pound LP Standard, long neck fender, metal pointy, versus a 6.5 lb compact headless in a light gig bag without having to worry about knocking a head stock against anything/cracking fragile neck joints, is worth miles of relaxation and spared back and arm aches. And if you can pull the same sounds out of it that you can a full sized guitar, then why not?

I love the look of traditional paddle headstocks (there are few things I dislike as much on a guitar than those tiny little atrophied CT headstocks) as much as anyone else, and if I was going on TV to be picked up by a camera for image creation that would have legs and define me for the masses, I'd probably haul out my old Carvin, my LP or a Swede. But for a blue collar musician out there all the time, annoying gigs, gigs you really hate, gigs you wish you never did, forgettable gigs, each appearance doesn't have to be a statement of ultimate preference. Sometimes you just do what's easiest, and try to find something that looks pretty cool at the same time you give your arms and back a rest. I actually like the Osiris, and am thinking of buying one and push it into Tele world w the pups and hardware.

And YOU'RE not a Gibson fan?? Don't you have a pricey CS 330 and a 335?


LOL! Yea, I have a 330 & 335, but I wouldn't say I am a big Gibson fan boy :lol: I just happen to like their semi-hollow and fully hollow guitars specifically. Everything else they make I can live without. Hope that makes sense.

True, I might be overthinking the headless guitar thing. I was wondering if I was missing on any other important technical information about their actual benefits.

It seems - to me - that a headless design fixes a problem that doesn't really exist to begin with because there are tons of guitars with headstocks that are lightweight and sustain well. Therefore, it boils down to just looks and personal preference (like most things guitar related) not necessarily a real breakthrough in instrument design technology.

Also, I am not judging those who like them. Actually, to be honest, this new one "Osiri" I could live with. The design of the body is really beautiful. But no headstock and completely crazy body designs like the Vaders and Zeus....that's just too much for me lol.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Naked Ape » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:21 pm

My fear is.... the growing trend of headless guitars might eventually lead to headstock withdrawal. It could trigger a severe relapse, that could look like this. :shock:
Screen Shot 2018-01-28 at 11.06.15 PM.png

:lol:
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Naked Ape » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:27 pm

Naked Ape wrote:My fear is.... the growing trend of headless guitars might eventually lead to headstock withdrawal. It could trigger a severe relapse, that might look like this. :shock:
Screen Shot 2018-01-28 at 11.06.15 PM.png
:lol:

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Naked Ape » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:28 pm

ooops. double post

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Brock » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:38 am

Here's something interesting...look at the price increases/changes since 2009 when I bought my CS6.

year 2009 year 2018
$1399 $1599 Base price (sale price)
$40 $0 (standard) stainless med-jumbo frets
$0 $40 R12 fretboard (R14 is now standard)
$30 $40 blackburst edges
$80 $50 abalone block inlays (mine were a free upgrade at time of purchase)
$0 (standard) $10 C22 pickups
$25 $100 hardshell case. (I think when I ordered mine, it was discounted but can't remember)
$1538 $1864 build price


Over the course of 8-1/2 years, the same guitar today would cost me $326 more. Not too bad considering what you get.

*edited to add - I cant figure out how to make the price comparison above look presentable and spaced out.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Omsong » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:55 am

1 Space: X X
10 Spaces: X X
10 Periods: X..........X
10 Periods + 10 spaces + 10 Periods: X.......... ..........X

Apparently the built in parser automatically removes what it interprets as extraneous spaces.
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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby spudmunkey » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:40 am

Brock wrote:Here's something interesting...look at the price increases/changes since 2009 when I bought my CS6.

year 2009 year 2018
$1399 $1599 Base price (sale price)
$40 $0 (standard) stainless med-jumbo frets
$0 $40 R12 fretboard (R14 is now standard)
$30 $40 blackburst edges
$80 $50 abalone block inlays (mine were a free upgrade at time of purchase)
$0 (standard) $10 C22 pickups
$25 $100 hardshell case. (I think when I ordered mine, it was discounted but can't remember)
$1538 $1864 build price


Over the course of 8-1/2 years, the same guitar today would cost me $326 more. Not too bad considering what you get.


Taking inflation into account, that $1538 has the same buying power as between $1755 and $1795 today. So it's really only a $109 (or less) difference. Your hardshell was discounted I think, because mine in 2008 for my CS6 was $74, so outside of that special the difference is only about $50 or less. And lastly, for many people, since the Ultimate Soft Case is a legitimate alternative to a hard case, you can save another few bucks, so it's effectively a draw. :lol:

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Brock » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:31 am

Yea, put it that way....a $50 difference. Not bad at all.

I saw the soft case was $60 when added to a build. Half off than if bought separate.

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby spudmunkey » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:46 am

Brock wrote:I saw the soft case was $60 when added to a build. Half off than if bought separate.


Yeah, they treat cases like "options" and you get 50% off cases when they can ship it with a guitar in it. :)

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Re: Kiesel Random Thoughts (not worth their own thread)

Postby Toptube » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:46 pm

Toptube wrote:Fret prices are strange, too. Stainless is standard. But only the one size. Other sizes are an upcharge------now more than EVO Gold, which used to cost more. Doesn't make sense.

I mean, I'll take cheaper EVO Gold, absolutely :shh:

A list of fretboard options and pricing, would be nice.


Jeff just said in a live stream, that all stainless is no charge. So, it seems like they have some flubs in the web builder.

He also said that you can still order nickel, but its non-returnable. So, if you have a guitar you know you love and know you want nickel, you can still get it. But for any newbies, I would never recommend a first build, to be non-returnable.


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