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YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:12 am
by GaryL
I'm waiting on my Vader 6x, and I hope that over time I really REALLY come to like playing this guitar as my #1. Because if I don't, according to this guy's readers anyway, there's no chance in selling it on the second hand market Top 5 Quality Guitars with HORRIBLE Resale Value Part: II

Of course, in his first video on the same subject he lists G&L, which I also own. :wall: I don't buy guitars as an investment. However, I sold three guitars and got close to what I paid. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:41 am
by spudmunkey
Since Kiesel's build times are only a couple of months, there's little incentive for people to buy someone else's used guitar a) unless the spec matches EXACTLY what they want, or b) there's a good deal to be had. This has been the case with Carvin for a couple of decades.

It does get tricky, because people not familiar with the brand will see a Kiesel Edition or an Aries with one-piece koa top and back and 7-piece necks, and then they go the the website and see the Aries starts at $999, and think that's the price. It's not until you actually poke around on the builder or the GIS section before you see how much optioned-up models can be.

One of the cool things about Kiesel is that for the base price and the included $100 in options, you get an incredible quality instrument, identical in play ability and tone as anything with $3,000+ in wood and finishes options. That makes it a hard sell on the used market, unless someone has the same tastes in the aesthetic options as you did when you ordered.

The good news is that it seems like (to me...but admittedly I don't look watch this very closely) resale has been improving the past 1-2 years.

You see similar things with cars, though, too. When I bought my last car, I basically got the 2nd highest trim package, with the biggest engine available, leather, and almost all the tech (I stopped short at the radar cruise control). These options added nearly 40% more to the cost of the car. However, even after just 3 years of ownership, if I compare the "used" cost of my car to the same age/condition of the base model with the cloth seats, smaller engine, etc, and they are only about $2k different. I will take a HUGE hit on the used market compared to someone who just got the base model...for the same car model.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:12 am
by brento73
Although I understand the concern, I have only ever bought one thing with concern for it's resale value. I've own three Carvin/Kiesel guitars and sold two, only because my HF2 is SO good and SO versatile I don't need anything else. I never worried about resale, since i go into it expecting to lose money if I sell it. I'm a guitar player, not a collector, so I don't worry about such things.

If anyone's curious, the thing I DID worry about resale value on was a camera lens; I was buying a used body/lens combo(Nikon D500) and didn't think I'd end up keeping the lens it came with, so I factored the resale value into how much I was willing to bid on the package.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:20 pm
by UnexplodedCow
If you've never played a Kiesel/Carvin before, then it might be surprising at first, though the necks remind me very much of a Jackson (only a little something else that I like in the carve).

The Vader is really small, light, and comfy. It's not an intrusive design, and that may take some time to be accustomed to, though I'm a large person and felt right at home, even on the 20" radius.

Also, agreed, there's not much reason to buy used, unless being cheap is on the list, or finding a vintage Carvin is desired. In the past, I've seen some wild Carvins that I felt compelled to buy due to the options/look, and I knew how they felt already, so it was a no-brainer, especially if it was a good deal (I do like me some inexpensive guitars).

I've noticed a trend that people are buying highly optioned guitars, playing them for a few months, and then selling for nearly the new price...and they sit. Yes, you'll probably take a bath on resale. It's not a Fender or Gibson. Kiesels/Carvins are great instruments, reasonably priced (for the most part these days), and I feel their depreciation factor is a huge boon for the budget guitarist. However, that low price is disappearing, and I'm seeing prices creep up considerably as this brand is growing. It still wouldn't put me off ordering a new instrument. There is nothing like getting it in, and knowing that it was built specifically to a single person's desire. It's a very intimate thing, especially if one is honest about the options they want, and not just throwing money out for a pretty guitar.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:44 pm
by Doctor Turn
Yeah, it's a little concerning for new viewers checking stuff out on the Kiesel marketplace on FB. You see so much highly specced brand new stuff.. so much of it is such highly personal speccing, and doesn't sell, and the listings........... start piling up. Odd to see such a pileup of new guitars, made just for the owner, built from their dreams.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:26 am
by Doctor Doug
The re-sale of Kiesels will never be great. The only draw that the used market has is the price.

Why would I buy one that's used when I can spec out my own for just a couple hundred bucks more? Therefore if someone wants me to buy theirs, they have to drop the price quite a bit.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:31 am
by UnexplodedCow
Doctor Turn wrote:Yeah, it's a little concerning for new viewers checking stuff out on the Kiesel marketplace on FB. You see so much highly specced brand new stuff.. so much of it is such highly personal speccing, and doesn't sell, and the listings........... start piling up. Odd to see such a pileup of new guitars, made just for the owner, built from their dreams.


Pricing stuff at 90% (even a few dollars shy in some cases) of new isn't exactly enticing. If I buy used, the warranty is immediately gone. Granted, things aren't likely to be bad at all (I've never played a "bad" Kiesel/Carvin), but things happen, so there's little reason to buy lightly used. Heck, even demo instruments get a fairly large cut on Kiesel's in-stock page, and they come with a warranty.

i think much of it is due to non-returnable options people aren't happy with, or bad finance management, and they're trying to recoup losses.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:13 am
by Treadplatedual
UnexplodedCow wrote:
Doctor Turn wrote:Yeah, it's a little concerning for new viewers checking stuff out on the Kiesel marketplace on FB. You see so much highly specced brand new stuff.. so much of it is such highly personal speccing, and doesn't sell, and the listings........... start piling up. Odd to see such a pileup of new guitars, made just for the owner, built from their dreams.


Pricing stuff at 90% (even a few dollars shy in some cases) of new isn't exactly enticing. If I buy used, the warranty is immediately gone. Granted, things aren't likely to be bad at all (I've never played a "bad" Kiesel/Carvin), but things happen, so there's little reason to buy lightly used. Heck, even demo instruments get a fairly large cut on Kiesel's in-stock page, and they come with a warranty.

i think much of it is due to non-returnable options people aren't happy with, or bad finance management, and they're trying to recoup losses.


Same thing happens with newer prs and gibson these days. A custom 24 is 3600 new, and maybe 2200 used. I figure a little over half is generally what you'd expect back from a kiesel if you sold it, unless you're willing to wait several months for the right price.

That said, just return it in the 10 day window if it doesn't sit right or you already have misgivings.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:42 pm
by Doctor Turn
UnexplodedCow wrote:
Doctor Turn wrote:Yeah, it's a little concerning for new viewers checking stuff out on the Kiesel marketplace on FB. You see so much highly specced brand new stuff.. so much of it is such highly personal speccing, and doesn't sell, and the listings........... start piling up. Odd to see such a pileup of new guitars, made just for the owner, built from their dreams.


Pricing stuff at 90% (even a few dollars shy in some cases) of new isn't exactly enticing. If I buy used, the warranty is immediately gone. Granted, things aren't likely to be bad at all (I've never played a "bad" Kiesel/Carvin), but things happen, so there's little reason to buy lightly used. Heck, even demo instruments get a fairly large cut on Kiesel's in-stock page, and they come with a warranty.

i think much of it is due to non-returnable options people aren't happy with, or bad finance management, and they're trying to recoup losses.


I'm not even thinking about the price that the guys are turning it around at--I can understand the impulse to start high, because so many of these guitars are so close to brand new, which was the point of my post:

that so many guys are selling what are supposed to be their dream guitars, hatched in the GAS-fueled imagination where the ultimate guitar is built... then they get it and it goes out on the market relatively quickly. It's just a little disconcerting to see so many, so new.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:47 pm
by brento73
I think some people are building with too much attention paid to 'bling', instead of really considering what they actually want from the guitar. It's also possible that some are buying them for some project, etc. and then deciding they don't really want/need them long term.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:59 pm
by Doctor Turn
brento73 wrote:I think some people are building with too much attention paid to 'bling', instead of really considering what they actually want from the guitar.

The lack of PAF voiced pups and AII/III/V single coils for 25.5" T & S style guitars is the perfect proof of that.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:16 pm
by brento73
Doctor Turn wrote:
brento73 wrote:I think some people are building with too much attention paid to 'bling', instead of really considering what they actually want from the guitar.

The lack of PAF voiced pups and AII/III/V single coils for 25.5" T & S style guitars is the perfect proof of that.


Sure, but I'm not talking about what is available from builders, but what sort of options are being chosen from what IS offered. If you shop with you're eyes, you may end up with a beautiful guitar that doesn't fit you style very well, making either a wall hanger or for sale.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:23 pm
by Doctor Turn
I totally get what you're saying, and this is a recurring theme around here.. ie the "blingy" sensibility of the custom shop. The custom offerings, with so many beautiful exotic woods and finishes is one of unique hallmarks and attractions here.

I hear you but my point is that--the simple fact of a guitar being blingy isn't, in my view, likely the reason is going to ultimately wind up being turned around into the second hand market. It'll go there because of the fact that, despite how blingy it looks, it doesn't sound they way they hoped. I think you mean that they focus too much on the build materials, and don't think enough about the elements that go into the sound. My point is there is probably an assumption in the mind of buyers that if they buy a tele style Solo, even a Tele Custom style solo with buckers (maybe w splitters), there would be the expectation that the guitar would have a tele-like sound, like a zillion and one Tele copies out there. Buy a Tele copy, expect a Tele sound. Buy a Strat copy, expect a Strat sound.. this is true everywhere. But here, buy a Solo and you are NOT getting that expectation fulfilled. And the fact that they don't falls on the default pups.

I have to imagine that if the guitar was built to look like the guitar of their dreams, but yet they want to sell and get something else... it's coming down to the sound.

Of course these are huge generalizations for a large crowd of sellers, each one w their own individual story.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:52 pm
by arahobob
Buy a Kiesel new.
Expect to lose a minimum of 30% on the resale.
Minimum.

It is what it is.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:49 am
by UnexplodedCow
arahobob wrote:Buy a Kiesel new.
Expect to lose a minimum of 30% on the resale.
Minimum.

It is what it is.


Tell that to the guys on the FB selling page. They expect that as a maximum, and try to stay away from it.


I even once saw someone putting up a build for sale. They bought it, wasn't complete yet, and they mentioned having made a financial mistake, and so were trying to sell it; irresponsible.

I keep hoping for reasonably priced stuff on that page/group, but it's super rare. That, and it seems that everyone thinks that having the active module instantly means money, and that it's a DC 400. It's fun to look at things, and the occasional nifty, old piece coming through, but the prices are worse than Reverb.

Re: YIKES! I hope I made the right choice.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:57 am
by Treadplatedual
Yup. Any time I've listed something on Reverb, I've known I'll take a bath, but such is life. I figure the price I paid was worth the time spent with a well-made instrument.