Pick up comparisons

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Stevie F
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Pick up comparisons

Postby Stevie F » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:49 am

Hi what pickups are similar if any to the k12 lithiams? I am ready now to order and unsure K12 or holdsworths I play British rock bad company, page, whitesnake, style tones only as an example (as I play and write rock ballads) so can anyone advice on the 2 pickups, if not I can supply my own thank you in advance Stevie

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:59 am

It may be worth your wait for just a little bit longer. Just yesterday they released their new Beryllium pickups. A demo video from Kiesel is coming soon. The word is that they are more of a "classic" tone, while the Lithium are more "modern". I haven't played the Holdsworth, and haven't seen enough demo video to be able to identify and describe their tone.

Just a week ago I wouldn't have mentioned the Berylliums, because they seem to have been on the horizon for a very long time... But you can actually call in and order now, and they said they are actually in production on the demo video, and should be released before or around NAMM.

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Doctor Doug » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:55 pm

Stevie F wrote:Hi what pickups are similar if any to the k12 lithiams? I am ready now to order and unsure K12 or holdsworths I play British rock bad company, page, whitesnake, style tones only as an example (as I play and write rock ballads) so can anyone advice on the 2 pickups, if not I can supply my own thank you in advance Stevie


I would suggest M22's for sure. If they can still be ordered....I don't know if they ran out yet. But they work really well for that classic 70's/80's heavy rock/metal sound.....At least in my experience.

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Stevie F » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:18 am

spudmunkey wrote:It may be worth your wait for just a little bit longer. Just yesterday they released their new Beryllium pickups. A demo video from Kiesel is coming soon. The word is that they are more of a "classic" tone, while the Lithium are more "modern". I haven't played the Holdsworth, and haven't seen enough demo video to be able to identify and describe their tone.

Just a week ago I wouldn't have mentioned the Berylliums, because they seem to have been on the horizon for a very long time... But you can actually call in and order now, and they said they are actually in production on the demo video, and should be released before or around NAMM.


oh wow Thank you Spud, that sounds brilliant i look forward to the video if they are more of a classic tone they will be a winner, might now even consider a Vader. let me know when the videos released cheers

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Doctor Turn » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:58 am

I second the vote for the M22'S. Best pickup in their line, if any are still left.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby wickid » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:35 am

Doctor Turn wrote:I second the vote for the M22'S. Best pickup in their line, if any are still left.


+1 ... Especially the unsung M22T. 8)
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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Doctor Turn » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:42 am

I would love to have a vintage (tight-taped with wood spacers) M22T. Someday.

I actually yesterday found the original 85 22SD that came with my guitar. It was in a box that I took home with me that also had the defective 2014 22SD that replaced it, and itself (the 14) got replaced. For some reason I thought my tech had junked the old one from 1985, but I have it, it turns out.

I wonder if anyone would be capable of fixing it...
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Doctor Turn » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:46 pm

Interesting piece of history on Verb:

Someone has a first round M22 neck pickup (1978) for sale. Not a bad price either. Very cool:

Image

Image
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby UnexplodedCow » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:40 am

The M series hasn't yet been pulled from the website, so I imagine they still have stock. For what it's worth, the new SDs are still made with wood blocks, but have fabric tape on them. I took apart a later model SD before, and the wrap on my purchased new white one had the wrap slightly off to where the wood is visible.

I'll miss these pickups when they're gone, that's for sure.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Doctor Turn » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:47 am

When you raht, you raht! And you are raht, Mister Cow!

I got this idea that wood wasn't being used for spacers from this site in a discussion from a year or two ago, or one older than that that I read--whenever it was it was a discussion about the supposed differences between the M22SD made today vs the originals, the alleged differences in construction and sound. Right around that time I'd come from the replacement of my original bridge pup with the made-in-2014 one, and looking quickly at the defective-coil one from 2014 seemed to bear that out visually... should have looked closer!

The defective M22 bridge pup w the cloth wind pulled up:

Image


I was noodling thru the site-search to try and find that discussion where I first read the idea, but haven't found it yet...

BTW, I'm surprised you haven't publicly extolled the virtues of your vintage M22N yet!
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:37 am

Heh! Smashing your dreams and preconceptions!

Regarding repairing your pickups; repairing a pickup is generally not too hard to do, if the break is toward the outside of the coil. If it's on the inside, or early in the winding phase, then the coil would need to be rewound. Knowing the wire gauge and basic DC resistance spec will help in knowing the amount of feet of wire used, which will reflect how many wraps of wire it has. Next comes the actual winding pattern. Without knowing the exact wind pattern of the M series (probably standard machine winding as a blind guess) the pickup would need to be unwound, and the pattern checked carefully. If it is indeed the standard "zig zag" pattern a machine uses, that's super easy; unwind the pickup, and rewind it to the spec required. If it has some wind anomaly, or is "scatter" wound, then the rabbit hole goes a lot deeper, and finding the pattern is important. The tricky part about repairing the 22 pole pickups is that they're glued together. Works great for ease of manufacturing and holding together, but is a pain for repair.

I may have to make a thread about my observations with the M series as a whole. I'm still baffled that they're unpopular enough to go away.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

Guitar theorem: G=X+1 where G= guitars one needs, and X = guitars one has.

Do or do not; there is no understand.

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Doctor Turn » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:39 am

Speaking of, has Jeff or anyone else in the fold given any hint of where they're at in the discontinuation of these pickups? They sure seem to be moving a lot of them, if posts on social media are any barometer. Lots of guitars that look to be loaded with M22'S going out the door, and this doesn't count the crush to simply buy them as replacement pups.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:59 am

Doctor Turn wrote:Speaking of, has Jeff or anyone else in the fold given any hint of where they're at in the discontinuation of these pickups? They sure seem to be moving a lot of them, if posts on social media are any barometer. Lots of guitars that look to be loaded with M22'S going out the door, and this doesn't count the crush to simply buy them as replacement pups.


Not specifically, no. He's mentioned that now with the Fishman Fluence pickups as an option, he's got zero desire to make active pickups anymore and while you still could get them on some models and they are still available as parts, it sounds like they won't be available any more.

He also mentioned that the S22 pickups won't be available anymore, now that the new covered pickups are here, and they appear to be removed from the builder on every model they used to be on, from what i can tell. but again, they are still listed on the parts page.

But with both of those, he didn't follow the comments with "But if you really want them we can do it, but it's yours; no 10-day trial"...but he also didn't say, "and they won't be available at all even as a no-returnable option) so those comments aren't really all that informative. :lol:


I do remember when he said that they were going to be phased out, that he estimated "could it 3 months, it could be a year, depending on how many get bought." I don't know if ththat was a real range based off high and low sales trends and stock on hand, or if they were simply pulled from his patoot.

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Doctor Turn
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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Doctor Turn » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:19 pm

What's the connection between active pickups and the Fluence pups, and making 22 pole pickups? Just curious.
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:21 pm

Doctor Turn wrote:What's the connection between active pickups and the Fluence pups, and making 22 pole pickups? Just curious.


Ok, sorry...I forgot to specify that was in relation to the A60/70/80 (and not so much a direct correlation to the 22 pole pickups, but just "carvin-era pickups going away" in general).

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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby UnexplodedCow » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:22 pm

From all the clips I've heard of the Fishman pickups, this isn't a bad thing. I never heard much of the A series pickups, though I wanted to see how they stacked up against the typical EMG offerings. I've tried the Fishman piezo bridge they used to sell, and it sounded quite good; better than a Graphtech ghost system I compared it against.

Actives always seem like a niche thing; passive pickups are just more common, so I suppose it makes sense. Also, did Carvin/Kiesel really make the pickups, or was it like the TBH-60 in that an OEM produced it?

Can't say I'll miss the S series pickups. Never tried 'em, but I never wanted a "warmer" sounding pickup to begin with, and never cared for covers, so it was moot.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

Guitar theorem: G=X+1 where G= guitars one needs, and X = guitars one has.

Do or do not; there is no understand.

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Doctor Turn
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Re: Pick up comparisons

Postby Doctor Turn » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:02 pm

I really don't mind either way except in one case, Les Pauls.. I generally like them better with pickup covers. But if it's a vintage burst, and someone was lucky enough to get twin zebra PAFs under there and they want to show them off, more power to them. But to me nothing looks sweeter than an ancient Gibson with humbuckers with the original covers, with the bezel plastics aged to a nice warm yellow and the covers slathered in vintage patina. It's a wonderful look.

Same goes for any old guitar. Like the humbuckers on my old Hagstroms.

I just love the look of old, un-tampered with, humbuckers (and P90s, whose covers start to smush and buckle under the screws). Even the old bridge M22 N on my Carvin.. they just look like they're saturated with all the decades of music that's passed through them. Just makes a great pickup seem that much sweeter.

Example of P90s buckling over time:
Image
Carvin Weaponry:
1985 DC150K (koa) Stereo, M22N/M22SD w/black hardware.
1985 100 Watt X Amp 2 x 12 combo (XV212) upgraded w/ 2 Vintage 30's
...and other gear.

https://soundcloud.com/the_heavy_clouds


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