2017 HH truss rod question

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MarkusB
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2017 HH truss rod question

Postby MarkusB » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:39 am

Hi everyone, I just need a word of advice from you wise people before doing something potentially wrong.

Here's my problem: my 2017 HH has a 5-piece all-maple neck, which is the single most stable neck I ever played. It's so rigid that, even with the truss totally disengaged (the nut is loose), relief is very low- it's perhaps one tenth of a millimeter with .010s, totally flat with .009s and somewhat negative (strings buzz occasionally at frets 2-5) with .008s. To make a long story short, I'd like to have a bit more relief.

It never occurred to me that the truss rod might also be able to work with the strings instead of against them- vintage ones can't do that and one risks to disassemble them upon trying, but that's exactly what a "2-way adjustable" truss rod does, isn't it? So if I continue to turn the nut further counterclockwise it will engage again and start to induce higher relief on the neck? Can someone confirm this so that I can gather the necessary courage to 'cross the ridge'?

I feel like an idiot for not thinking about this for so long, but this is the first time I've had this problem with any guitar. You know, playing acoustics with .013s and classical guitars with no truss rods whatsoever 99% of the time doesn't prepare you for this :-D

Many thanks in advance!

best,

MB

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spudmunkey
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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby spudmunkey » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:14 am

Yep, you've got it. Turning the other way, eventually, it'll seat itself and start to "grab", pulling the beech the other way.

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Bob C » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:40 pm

Yeah, the first time I hit that "in between" zone on mine I was a bit confused. It's like neutral on your transmission. Another tweak and you're in reverse.

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby MarkusB » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:34 am

Thanks!

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massifontana
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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby massifontana » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:49 am

I think this video (from 6:52) should help
https://youtu.be/Ad8nqm5qP6A?t=6m52s


BUT When I tried on my vader the strange thing was that when tightening the feel was kinda "loose"..what am I missing? :think:

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Bob C » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:05 am

1 Make sure you're turning it the right way. On most truss rods, clockwise "straightens" the neck (unless it is already back bowed).

2 On two way truss rods, there is a "neutral" spot between "loosen" and tighten". Turn it a bit more and it will "catch".

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby massifontana » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:10 am

Bob C wrote:1 Make sure you're turning it the right way. On most truss rods, clockwise "straightens" the neck (unless it is already back bowed).

2 On two way truss rods, there is a "neutral" spot between "loosen" and tighten". Turn it a bit more and it will "catch".



I think the second it's exactly what I'm talking about..so turning a little more I should fill the truss catching.. :o

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Bob C » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:38 am

That's the way it was for me. The first time I ran across that, it was a surprise. But now it's just business as usual. AND the "dead zone" is right around where the neck relief is perfect for me. But I always turn it enough so that it grabs.

While others report that they haven't adjusted their Carvin necks in years, I tweak my LB70 all the time. But it's not a big deal.

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby massifontana » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:57 am

Bob C wrote:That's the way it was for me. The first time I ran across that, it was a surprise. But now it's just business as usual. AND the "dead zone" is right around where the neck relief is perfect for me. But I always turn it enough so that it grabs.

While others report that they haven't adjusted their Carvin necks in years, I tweak my LB70 all the time. But it's not a big deal.



THANKS! :woot:

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Bob C » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:25 am

How did it work out for you?

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby massifontana » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:16 am

Bob C wrote:How did it work out for you?


consider that I play since I was 15 and now that I'm 41 I'm still a newbie in guitar setting :mrgreen:
I found always kiesel instruments to be super low action setted from factory..
I got a Vader 6x in november, and after changing the strings I wanted to try to re adjust the neck..
I feel itkinda OK, but what I notice is that if I thighten the truss rods the first frets ONLY start to buzz..it's like the action keeps on slightly raise going towards the bridge.. is that normal?
Thanks!

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Bob C » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:30 pm

It sounds like the neck may be too straight, in which case you would need to loosen the rod a bit. It's a balancing act between neck relief and string height at the bridge and nut. And as you've probably heard before, a little buzzing is okay.

There's lots of info on the web about adjusting guitars. I'm pretty sure there's a setup guide on Kiesel's site too. You could always take it to a qualified shop for a once-over too.

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby massifontana » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:56 pm

Thanks Again Bob, researching I found the same advices.. But if I loosen the rod seems like strings get higher everywhere with same ratio as before..
I mean, remaining lower at first 5 frets then increasing going towards the brige.. I Thought it could be the bridge too high maybe.. Could make sense?

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Bob C » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:14 pm

I don't want you to blindly trust my word 100%. You can go adjustment crazy and end up putting things way out of whack.
On the other hand, that's how you learn.

But yes, with a touch more relief, you should be able to lower the action at the bridge a bit.

A few questions: How was the setup before you changed the strings? Is it "close" now, or is it terrible? Are the new strings a different brand or gauge? EDIT: I see it was MarkusB, not you who changed strings. Did your Vader buzz when you got it?

When I put new strings on my bass, I'm always tempted to mess with the setup because there's more clank and buzz. But that's usually only due to the strings being brand new with more zing.

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby massifontana » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:37 pm

Bob C wrote:I don't want you to blindly trust my word 100%. You can go adjustment crazy and end up putting things way out of whack.
On the other hand, that's how you learn.

But yes, with a touch more relief, you should be able to lower the action at the bridge a bit.

A few questions: How was the setup before you changed the strings? Is it "close" now, or is it terrible? Are the new strings a different brand or gauge? EDIT: I see it was MarkusB, not you who changed strings. Did your Vader buzz when you got it?

When I put new strings on my bass, I'm always tempted to mess with the setup because there's more clank and buzz. But that's usually only due to the strings being brand new with more zing.

BOB when I received the guitar it was super low action, with too much buzz on the first two strings when picking slightly too hard.. So I simply gave a back turn to the bridge height on that side.. Anyway, it was pretty close on how is right now I suppose.. The more height of the strings going toward the bridge its something I could have noticed only now..
Obviously strings I changed are always same gauge..

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Omsong » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:12 pm

massifontana wrote:BOB when I received the guitar it was super low action, with too much buzz on the first two strings when picking slightly too hard.. So I simply gave a back turn to the bridge height on that side.. Anyway, it was pretty close on how is right now I suppose.. The more height of the strings going toward the bridge its something I could have noticed only now..
Obviously strings I changed are always same gauge..


Same here, action was ridiculously low on my new Fatboy - almost no neck relief - less than 0.005" at the 7th fret. I tolerated the significant fret buzzing up and down the neck for a couple of weeks until I figured that the instrument had settled into it's new home. Then I started tweaking the truss after checking that there were no high frets. Initially, I was shocked because there was no tension on the rod as I turned it ( I guess that was it's"'neutral" position.). I also noticed that every time I picked up the guitar it was out of tune. I NEVER had that issue with a Carvin/Kiesel before (or any other electric for that matter). Anyway, after about a week of going back and forth, adjusting for sufficient relief, it now seems to have stabilized at around 0.01" at the 7th fret, with a total relief at the 12th fret at little less than 0.02" for the 6th string, and 0.015" for the high E. (With much more resistance when adjusting the truss, too.) I didn't adjust the bridge height, but did raise the stop tailpiece to lessen string tension. Now there is hardly any fret buzz and the tuning stability is much improved. I'm much happier with its setup now.
Ichi on Jobutsu (Enlightenment in one tone.)

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- '02 Fatboy; '04 CT6M; '07 Fatboy; '11 Bolt+

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Bob C » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:41 am

That's good to hear. I'm no expert (and by the way, that "neutral position" is just the way I describe it), but I do tweak my setup a lot. I just got a new Aries bass in November, and it plays fine with practically no buzzing. But it isn't "broken in" like my 18+ year old LB70. That one took a while to get just right. In retrospect, I think there's a setting in period and also a "getting acquainted" period which can vary depending on the player and the instrument.

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Re: 2017 HH truss rod question

Postby Omsong » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:07 am

That's true, Bob C. I switch back and forth between acoustic instruments and the electric guitar and the required right hand pick attack can be significantly different between them. I definitely hit the strings harder on the acoustic than what is necessary for the electric. Plus, on the mandolin a downward attack brings out more of its resonant tone - but that only accentuates fret buzz on a low action electric.

When adjusting the truss on my FatBoy, there was a period where I would get good neck relief, and think I've finally got it right. But then I'd pick up the guitar the next day and its neck would have straightened out to almost flat again. Very frustrating! It took about four or five round of this before it finally stabalized. It now also takes quite a bit of torque to move the truss. I wonder if those carbon fiber rods Kiesel now puts in the necks are actually interfering with the truss rod action. (BTW- i have a 5 piece neck which should be super stiff on it's own.) Hmmm...
Ichi on Jobutsu (Enlightenment in one tone.)

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- '02 Fatboy; '04 CT6M; '07 Fatboy; '11 Bolt+


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