HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

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wickid
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HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby wickid » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:16 am


Back story -
So I broke out my Bolt+'s recently, to see if they need a string change (time-wise, they should, but theres been no string gunk on my fingers, and they sound pretty good, so it can hold off for now). I also had to replace a scratchy 5-way selector on one, which was WAY overdue! But in doing so, I've ignited an itch for a 22 fret Aries. The options have pretty much already been done (mostly) by 1 or 2 others - satin moss green on black limba, evo med-jumbo frets, ... and I'm also being swayed toward the royal ebony fretboard (from zebrawood).
I also really want to try the Berylliums. Pretty much all of my harem have their p/ups parked in them and are set right now, so whats a poor lad to do ... but gas for another axe? :twisted:

1 Bolt+ is an H-H setup with a 3-way blade switch, so its the typical Bridge, Both, Neck setup.
My Electric Blue Bolt+ is comprised of M22T, TBH, C22J with a non-typical re-wiring I did, involving a mini "mode" switch (kinda proud of figuring this out, changes how the "combined" selections behave).
It goes -

Code: Select all

N = C22J, HB
N+M =
.....a) Mini sw DOWN = C22J + M22T, HB/HB
.....b)Mini sw UP = C22J,HB + M22T,tapped:top-coil-on
M = M22T, HB
Br+M =
.....a) Mini sw DOWN = TBH + M22T,tapped:bottom-coil-on
.....b) Mini sw UP = TBH + M22T,tapped:top-coil-on
Br = TBH (hardly ever used by itself)

* Important - the mini sw does NOT affect any other position, the way its wired into the 5-way, from either "side".

Its not the easiest configuration to navigate, to get to the M22T by itself on the fly (wired to the middle), but I manage.

Anyway, from playing these 2, in trying to decide the p/up layout in a new bolt guitar - whether I want a middle single coil (or TBH) or not - I've come to like the HB-HB selection. I have other bolt guitars for the 2/4 positions.
I also know that a typical Kiesel wiring for an H-H 5-way setup has the 2 inner coils in series. I have an ST300 with that. It intrigues me.
Here's a diagram of that -

Image

:idea: :idea:

So my brain starts kicking in with this cockamamie loose screw ...
I'm thinking of possibly going with a 3-way blade selector (either from Kiesel, or re-wire it in myself, basically copy that diagram to a 3-way, I think??), and somehow tie into the middle position (3) with a mini switch so that pos 3 can either be ...
a) inner coils in series
[Hot -> Br-Red -> Br-G+W -> N-G+W -> N-Black -> ground.
I believe the Neck-Red and Br-Black also need to be taken out of the circuit?]
b) each HB in parallel (like I have in my Bolt+s).
[Each p/up G+W is taken out of the circuit.]
(Of course, I want the outer positions to just be the bridge or neck HBs by themselves.)

I think this "mode" switch may have to do 3 things(*), so I have a dilemma with a usual DPDT (DOUBLE pole) on-on switch.
(*)
1) Change the connection of Br-Red
2) Change the connection of N-Black
3) Change the connection of the G+W to be connected to each other, or not.
Also, it has to NOT affect the other positions, only in the middle.

Its a poser. :? :shock: :(
Anyway, I'm leaving it here as a work in progress and if theres any bright ideas from you good geniuses here. 8)

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Re: HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:52 am

Use an On/Off/On DPDT switch instead. That should solve your issues.

I did that for my 135, to switch on in either parallel or series with the humbuckers, and coil split comes off a DPDT push/pull volume pot. It's not quite the same switching as a blade switch, though think of it as a sub switching system, depending on where the blade is as, and that should cover your needs.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

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Re: HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby wickid » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:57 pm

UnexplodedCow wrote:Use an On/Off/On DPDT switch instead. That should solve your issues.

....


How would you wire that up? :? (besides "very carefully" :wink: )
Is the on/off/on a 3 position mini switch? I would think that would be a "triple throw"?
I admit I get confused by the on-on, on/off/on, and DPDT terminology. I always have to look that up.

I think I was right, this explains it - DPDT, on/off/on ...
Image

I'm starting to think I'd need a TPDT (triple pole) switch (on-on, I don't know what the "off" position gets me??), or a 3-way superswitch p/up selector + DPDT on-on. I think I've seen a TPDT, but not sure about the 3-way superswitch. me = :wall:
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Re: HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:19 pm

More poles never hurt a switching system. At the least, they aren't used. DPDT is most common, but 3PDT mini toggles are out there. I would think the middle off position of a 3 way would allow you to have the blade switch function "normally" and then the switch kicks in for a series/parallel.

I'm still foggy today, despite it being after 1600!
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

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Re: HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby wickid » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:29 pm


Yeah, I found some ebay linx to 3PDT, but nothing on a 3-way SS (other than I'm not the first to think of it).
Also, in case it wasn't clear (it was rather long). I'm shooting for this -

N = Neck p/up HB
Mid = (via switch)
a) inner coils of both p/ups in series.
- Passes the taps of 1 p/up to the tap leads of the other.
- Hot goes to 1st p/up, 2nd p/up coil gets grounded.
b) Neck full-HB and Bridge full-HB.
- Hot goes to both p/ups. Also, both p/ups bottom coils grounded.
- Tap leads out of the loop.
B = Bridge p/up HB.

Not that I'd want to series/parallel the coils of 1 p/up.
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Re: HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby UnexplodedCow » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:50 pm

Thanks for the explanation.

I'll think on this more, and get back to you after I draw some. I'm pretty sure that the 5 way super switch will do what you need, without the need of toggles, but I can't find one in a 3 way version (which would be nice).

However, I have an idea on the side that I need to try, and may implement on my V6, as I'd love to hear it with shared humbuckers in the middle position vs. the standard split/series from the wiring picture you posted.

I tend to play more with series/parallel than coil taps, but enjoy them all. The only one that utterly fails is the TBH60 when split. Parallel gives more output, but without as much of the humbucker sound.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

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Re: HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby UnexplodedCow » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:49 am

I spent a little time with this, and it can be accomplished (I think) with a 4 way blade and mini DPDT toggle. I was thinking of the typical Oak-Grisby 4 way, which shares no posts other than the input posts. However, this method is a bit clunky.

A 5 way superswitch handles all the needs, as each coil between a pair of humbuckers can be individually switched, and does not share throws, like the typical 5 way.

A rotary switch would also work, but I don't care for them as much. A 4 pole 11 position would be insane, and you could switch the coils any way you wanted, though. Inner, outer, single of any coil, HB, split and HB in series or parallel at the same time. Pretty excessive, but it would be cool for the sake of doing it.

Requirements to be met (assigning each coil with a number, lowest is closest to the neck, highest is closest to bridge).

C1+: Switches hot only
C1-: Always connected to C2+
C2+: Switches between C1- and Hot
C2-: Switches between C3+ and Ground
C3+: Switches between C2- and Hot
C3-: Switches between Ground and C4+
C4+: Switches between C3- and Ground.
C4-: Always ground.

Given the superswitch layout, you'd have 5 positions that would work.

1: C1+2 in series (neck HB)
2. C2+3 in series (split of neck and bridge HB, series inner coils)
3. C2 on its own (neck single)
4. C2 + 3 in parallel (neck and bridge HB parallel)
5. C3+4 in series (bridge HB)

Of course, you can mix it up between having the neck or bridge in single coil only mode, but I like the neck single sound more, so that's where I came up with.

It's a LOT of switch for your needs in this case, and one section would only be used for position 4, otherwise the series/parallel wouldn't work with inner coils split. But, you get a pretty neat extra position out of it, too.
We are entitled to our own, wrong, opinions.

Guitar theorem: G=X+1 where G= guitars one needs, and X = guitars one has.

Do or do not; there is no understand.

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Re: HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby wickid » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:07 am


Thanks. 8) I'm coming to the realization I may need to go the 5way superswitch route. I might just have to decide what the "5th" selection should be ... maybe both p/ups, with 1 tapped (a good clean tone also).

2 more things -
I also broke out my ST300 with the inner/series middle position. I'm finding the inner/series has a pretty good clean tone, but dirtied up ... so-so. I think I prefer the H-H middle selection.

I realized I also HAD that inner/series selection with the rotary switch that was on my PRS (changed to a 3-way selector), and wired up my purple Bolt in an H-H config similar to what I'm looking for here, but it was far from perfect. That used a mini switch, but affected the Bridge position. It kinda worked, but I wasn't 100% sure how the middle position behaved when the mini switch was "engaged" (it made sounds=good). I'll have to look at how I wired that up. (I've since gone to a different HotRails, TBH, 1/4lber setup).

.....

I may even go a different route, maybe similar to how I wired up the purple Bolt. Go with a 3-way blade switch wiring (instead of the H-H 5way above), along with a push/pull tone coil tap (see if Kiesel would do that). Then re-wire that tone/mini sw for my needs. :think:
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Re: HB - HB wiring update ideas? ...

Postby wickid » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:47 pm


My interest has waned for the inner/series option, as once again I tried both the ST300 and Bolt+ and prefer the H-H middle selection. Yet this has still nagged me enough, and I think I came up with a solution that utilizes a superswitch and a 3PDT mini switch. I came up with something that has the extreme outer positions being the Neck or Bridge full HB, and can select inner/series or H-H with the mini in positions 2,3, AND 4. So I can just throw the switch to a selection and not have to be precise. It kinda wastes 2 of the 3 mid positions, but I could always wire them up however I feel at a later point.
I also tried to streamline that setup in a "normal" 2-pole 3-way selector along with the 3PDT mini. But this had some affected behavior in the Neck and Bridge positions with the 3PDT mini "engaged", so its not perfect.

The superswitch (SS) solution uses all 4 poles. *ALL* of the mid positions (2-4) behave the same as a single middle position.
It wires the volume/hot + tone to 2 poles for the Bridge and Neck p/up engagement.
If pos 1 === Bridge and pos 5 === Neck Then ...
The Bridge Red goes to a hot/vol/tone pole in pos 1-4.
Another SS pole is wired to ground, and the Bridge Black is wired to pos1 of this SS ground pole *and* to a 3PDT pole that is then wired to pos 2-4 of this SS ground pole when "UP".
The Neck Red is wired to other SS hot/vol/tone pole pos5 *and* to a 3PDT pole that is wired to pos 2-4 of this pole when "UP".
1 of the Green+White tap leads is wired to the 4th SS pole, and the other p/up's G+W taps are wired to the 3rd 3PDT pole which is wired to the SS pos 2-4 when "DOWN".
*This cleanly affects only (middle) pos 2-4 of the SS. The outer selections are each p/up - full HB.

The 3-way 2-pole selector + 3PDT gets wired as follows.
1 pole of the 3-way is wired to hot/vol/tone at the common lug, the other pole common lug to ground.
Bridge Red is wired to the 3-way hot/vol/tone common (always "hot").
Neck Black is wired to the 3-way common ground lug (always "grounded").
Bridge Black is wired to the 3-way ground pole Bridge position.
It is also wired to a 3PDT pole that connects to the 3-way ground Mid position (when "UP").
The Neck Red is wired to the 3-way hot/vol/tone Neck position.
It is also wired to a 3PDT pole that connects to the 3-way hot/vol/tone Mid position (when "UP").
Each p/up Green+White tap leads are wired to the 3rd 3PDT pole such that they are connected to each other when "DOWN".
*This works as expected I think in the Mid positon, whether the 3PDT is UP or DOWN. But when DOWN, because of the automatic connections to hot or ground and the linkup of the tap leads, I think this adds the Neck bottom coil to the Bridge selection of the 3-way, and *might* add the Bridge top coil to the Neck selection of the 3-way. It possibly "leaks" signal to those coils.
:?: :? :shock: :think: :shrug:

Proud Carvin owner since 1985! My Carvin gear time capsule...

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