Vader THNN Neck is NOT that thin?

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Tones2
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Re: Vader THNN Neck is NOT that thin?

Postby Tones2 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:17 am

UnexplodedCow wrote:If they quoted that measurement, it's very likely accurate, as Kiesel will have accurate, calibrated tools for such tasks. It's possible that the calipers you purchased aren't as precise in their measurement, even if you measured perfectly. It's good for ballpark, but may not be biblically accurate. The only reason I quoted my own guitar's thickness is because I own calibrated measuring tools that are accurate to a tighter tolerance (0.0001") and use those to compare against my cheap calipers. I wouldn't trust the calipers much otherwise, unless it was something from Mitutoyo or other high end brand.

Total difference between measurements is 0.06". That's just shy of 1/16th" or 1.5mm, and easily possible between calipers. If you post a video, I can tell you if how you're doing is correct. It's easy to get wrong, or use too much, or too little pressure.


I have two different calipers (one plastic so I don't scratch the guitar) that SAY they are 0.0005" accurate. One cost about $50 and the other around $25. Reviews say they are pretty accurate. I did previously measure with BOTH of them and got similar reading ranging from 0.89" to 0.92" maybe. I think I was in the proper place for measurement (right before the fret the sounds the note for the 12 fret position, per the instruction video I watched) and placed the proper amount of pressure (So that it's just touching both side but no more). However, that's why I want to do it again using both calipers ON VIDEO so that everyone can tell me what I'm doing right or wrong. Then I will do it again, and again if necessary. :) Or go to professional guitar repair person and have THEM do it on video. Heck - that may be easier. :) NOT that it matters at this point since there is nothing I can do about it. Just so I know that I'm not going crazy in my assessment of the thickness of the neck.

I'll repost this picture (comparing to my Becker Vader which is supposed to speck out exactly the same) as a visual representation of what I am feeling...I have many more I can post if something thinks its the photo angle or something. Of course, even if it does measure the 0.9" ish, AND is that much thicker then the Becker Vader, the question still remains as to whether this i an acceptable tolerance or not, which is what I'd like opinions on.
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Last edited by Tones2 on Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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UnexplodedCow
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Re: Vader THNN Neck is NOT that thin?

Postby UnexplodedCow » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:23 am

The picture may not represent things, either, due to slightly different angles between the necks. They'd have to be absolutely the same angle and distance from the camera in order to visibly measure the distance. It's kind of a moot point since the decision was made, though.
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Re: Vader THNN Neck is NOT that thin?

Postby Tones2 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:28 am

UnexplodedCow wrote:The picture may not represent things, either, due to slightly different angles between the necks. They'd have to be absolutely the same angle and distance from the camera in order to visibly measure the distance. It's kind of a moot point since the decision was made, though.


Well I expected this answer as it seems no matter what I say or post someone is going to say that - angle is wrong, caliber is wrong, measurement pressure is wrong, etc, even if I VIDEO TAPE. It's no win here. I have like 30 pictures from different angles that I can post ALL of which show the same thing. Ugh..

What I am going to do when I get the guitar back is go to guitar repair shop from a big box like Guitar Center, take BOTH guitars for measurement, have him feel both and assess thickness qualitatively and video tape the whole thing straight without edits and post no matter what the results. Stay tuned for that sometime next week... :D

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Re: Vader THNN Neck is NOT that thin?

Postby UnexplodedCow » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:18 am

It really comes down to burden of proof. People can, and often do, say whatever they want, but backing up the claim usually requires clinical accuracy.

An example of this would be when I'd ordered a Z6X a few months ago, it came in with the trem posts leaning forward a few degrees. I measured the posts, the inserts in the wood, and the wood top itself, and was able to confirm (with dial gauges and micrometer/caliper) that the posts were leaning 3.8 degrees forward, which was enough to cause a tuning stability problem. The guitar went back, an email was sent with the pictures, and I had it a couple weeks later, with the posts perfectly upright. There was zero argument, and despite the pictures making the posts look like they were leaning, I wanted to be absolutely sure in my statement, hence the more precise measurements (and I took a second measurement to ensure my first ones were accurate).

Had I been told that the posts were not leaning forward, I would ask for exact measurements, and *how* they were measured, in order to duplicate it myself. This isn't to shame anyone; only because I like seeing the numbers. If you do post up a video, or pictures, of the measurements, also try to post the calipers measuring something else that has a known thickness. Maybe take it to a professional luthier and have them measure it for fun. Guitar Center hasn't ever proven itself to be reliable to me, though this is personal preference, and I do my own work on guitars (among other things) as needed, so I often opt to be "cheap" and do it myself, and know it's accurate. This is not the case for everyone under the sun, and I can respect that. If you're not too far from central Ohio, perhaps we can meet up, and I can measure/confirm thickness for you, as well as possibly take a look at finish thickness to determine exactly what it is.
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Re: Vader THNN Neck is NOT that thin?

Postby texastoast » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:32 am

Tones2 wrote:
UnexplodedCow wrote:The picture may not represent things, either, due to slightly different angles between the necks. They'd have to be absolutely the same angle and distance from the camera in order to visibly measure the distance. It's kind of a moot point since the decision was made, though.


Well I expected this answer as it seems no matter what I say or post someone is going to say that - angle is wrong, caliber is wrong, measurement pressure is wrong, etc, even if I VIDEO TAPE. It's no win here. I have like 30 pictures from different angles that I can post ALL of which show the same thing. Ugh..

What I am going to do when I get the guitar back is go to guitar repair shop from a big box like Guitar Center, take BOTH guitars for measurement, have him feel both and assess thickness qualitatively and video tape the whole thing straight without edits and post no matter what the results. Stay tuned for that sometime next week... :D


I for one feel you have nothing to prove. I hope nothing but the best and I have always thought this is your and kiesel's issue. At first many were just trying to help you figure things out. Once you decided to return it the deal is done. Saying that, if you find out the neck is actually not what they say it is, then that would be interesting.

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Re: Vader THNN Neck is NOT that thin?

Postby Tones2 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:00 am

texastoast wrote:I for one feel you have nothing to prove. I hope nothing but the best and I have always thought this is your and kiesel's issue. At first many were just trying to help you figure things out. Once you decided to return it the deal is done. Saying that, if you find out the neck is actually not what they say it is, then that would be interesting.


I really don't intend at this point to try to return the guitar again or call out Kiesel in any way. I'm sure what they said is true in terms of what saw in there own measurements. However, I have the dilemma of KNOWING this neck is thick both from from experience and using a direct compare to the Vader I already have as well as other guitars. Really if for my own benefit to document that what I am feeling is actually TRUE. I wanted to video tape for assurance that I'm not doing anything incorrectly and for verification. I am now in agreement this should be done by a professional. As stated, I DO have a compare guitar - another Vader model which is supposed to spec out the same, per the picture I posted. I only suggested Guitar Center for this because it's a known brand store. If I go to a smaller place I might be accused of it being a friend or something doing it. Now I'm hypersensitive. The results will be interesting either way and give me some factual documented insights on this whole situation. :)

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Re: Vader THNN Neck is NOT that thin?

Postby Bass Viking » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:33 am

Tones2 wrote:

As for the paint tuner issue I don't know what to say. I know there was paint on it when I opened the case as the first thing I noticed and was there when I first tuned. I did not check underneath the tuners for damage as I thought at the time it was some minor excess paint thing, nor have a picture or video of me opening the box (lesson learned - I will always do this from now on for any future guitar purchased). Believe me I know how this looks and I've been racking my brain thinking about event sequence and how it could have happened, but I do realize no one will will believe this (and understandably so) so I have no recourse here, so I'll have to assume this responsibility as I have no other options. I have no real idea, but I could have made it worse in playing with the tuners while changing one string or loosing the strings to measure - I don't really know as it wasn't a major issue at the time. Again it wouldn't be an issue for me if I got the guitar with an acceptable neck thickness - now it's only an issue because Kiesel is saying the neck thickness is correct and now they probably won't accept a return.

In any case, I am certainly screwed. Outside of the response from Kiesel on this thread, I have had no contact from Kiesel telling me what the options are. I'm assuming they will play hardball and I get the guitar sent back as my only solution, which I'll never play with that neck thickness. That's $1,500 lost - not a super amount of money, but certainly enough to hurt. Well, I can chalk it up to being a lesson learned on my part (it's not like it's a life and death issue :) ), and depending how this is ultimately resolved, a potential loss of a customer and loss of recommendations to others from me for Kiesel (neither of which I assume they care much about). This is absolutely NOT about the paint issue (so please let's not go there yet again - I accept that liability)


Whatever you do, please don't go slagging Kiesel for sending out instruments with paint flaws. There is no way their quality control would have missed such a blatant and obvious flaw. So obvious that you claim it was the first thing you noticed when receiving the guitar. You seem to be minimizing the paint issue but it is actually a MAJOR issue since it invalidates any refund. If they are lying, which I seriously doubt, have you considered a credit card dispute?

As far as the neck, yes it does look comparatively thicker in the photo you posted. Sanding it down seems like a good option. It would be a shame to give up on a nice looking guitar!


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