Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

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parousia
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Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:47 am

Hi:
I have a Kiesel V220.

I have had problems tuning since day one, but have lived with it for about 2 years and due to this its not my main guitar.
I have the Kiesel 3 per side mini locking tuners.

Today after getting my frets dressed, my setup guys said he believed my tuners where the problem as he too observed the keys seem to slip.

Today after getting my guitar back home, I noticed the high e-string was flat after playing for a bit so I checked to see if the tuners were still slipping and one of the new strings broke right at the post...I barely turned it too; I have previously spoke to Kiesel on the phone but never have found a resolution. I own other Kiesel guitars with locking tuners and have no issues what so ever, however, this is ongoing.

I have a pair of Kiesel non locking tuners I ordered direct from Kiesel but never put them on my guitar...please advise if you have any thoughts on the Kiesel locking tuner keys slipping and/or any thoughts helping me resolve this. Would this fall under warranty? I am at a loss, the guitar is otherwise a great guitar, however, tuning instability keeps it on the sidelines...

NOTE: I play a Gibson Flying and have no problems keeping it in tune; I have been stretching my strings for years and use the same strings and gauge on all my guitars.

Thanks

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:37 am

...

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:47 am

I think this might be the first time I've read about any issues with the Kiesel tuners since they launched several years ago, which is originally why there's been no replies. :(

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:43 am

Not a big deal, I didn't expect any support... further, I've taken no action as my Gibson is KING

I guess its possible nothing is wrong, and I admit I don't use locking on tuners on my main guitars and I needed to learn how to keep my guitars in tune, i.e. stretching and wrapping the the strings correctly etc.

Perhaps this is what is happening here, but keeping it in tune is never ending...

Found this, we'll see if it has any value: DOH!

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby ExDementia » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:19 pm

I would be surprised if the tuners are the issue, but it is certainly possible. Maybe an incorrectly slotted nut is the culprit here? Either way, contact Kiesel and they'll pay to send it back and they'll go through it and fix the issue.

As a note, the purpose of locking tuners is not really for tuning stability, but for ease and quickness of changing strings.

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:32 pm

I put new strings on and I'll give it a bit to see how it goes...True, it could be binding in the nut...Thanks
Contacted them, no follow up on e-mail (except it was received and forwarded)
CSR said I was responsible for shipping and offered no other help; no trouble shooting or any type of inquiry etc.

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby spudmunkey » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:46 pm

ExDementia wrote:.

As a note, the purpose of locking tuners is not really for tuning stability, but for ease and quickness of changing strings.


That's not really true. I mean, sort of. They also eliminate tuning issues caused by the multiple wraps around the post shifting on each other. While this is definitely more important on a guitar with a tremolo, it is also something that can affect a fixed bridge guitar, especially with vibrato and bends (yes, even when doing the "lock" wrap technique).

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:44 pm

How tight are you guys turning the the knurled knob on back of the locking tuners? This is pretty important?!

I guess if you grew up with locking tuners this is common knowledge, but I have never used them prior to my Kiesel and had I thought about it would not have ordered my guitar with them. (perhaps they are better and I am just old school i.e. learned to make do with an inferior design?)

I tightened the knurled screws very snug and lowered my pickups so there is not the potential for magnetic pull? not sure if this is yet another myth and or source of problems. I have the strings going thru as in the video listed above and things seem much better, I never did wrap my SIT strings around the locking tuner though.

I think when I first called (on this tuning issue and perhaps when I ordered the Kiesel non locking tuners) I was advised the knurled screw doesn't have to be real tight, which I believe is incorrect.

Only time will tell... :wall:

Locking Tuner Video w/SIT Strings

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby ElfDude » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:04 pm

parousia wrote:Hi:
I have a Kiesel V220.

I have had problems tuning since day one, but have lived with it for about 2 years and due to this its not my main guitar.
I have the Kiesel 3 per side mini locking tuners.



I'm assuming you bought it new. If so, it's still under warranty. Have you considered calling and letting them know it has tuning issues?
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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:11 pm

Yes, It is a new guitar I ordered on a visit to the old showroom.

I have called a few times, and to be truthful, I feel like a nuisance and never really get any help... The internet manager passed my request on but I never heard back.

One rep said send it back, but for the price of shipping I can buy new tuners and my guitar isn't left subject to the whole process of shipping and sitting at Kiesel for who knows how long...and with the support I've received I just haven't felt good about taking that route to be frank.

It seems I was told don't tighten the tuners too much, but this seems the best so far (tried this in the last day). Its been better since I did this and lowered my pickups.

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby HarlowTheFish » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:44 pm

This is the process I've used across all the locking tuners I have, if you want to give it a try:
    Line tuner holes up with the path the string will take between the nut slot and the tuner, so the string doesn't have to go around or bend
    Feed strings into bridge, over nut, and into tuner hole
    Pull tight by hand (I wrap the excess string around my non-dominant hand and use the weight of the guitar to pull it) and lock hand-tight but snug enough that you can't pull it at all from either side
    Tune up. You're optimally looking to get between half and a quarter turn, and not much more.
I had a lot of trouble with really thin strings (8s in my case) slipping a lot and breaking easily and with really stiff strings (DR DDTs) snapping at the bend unless I filed the edge of the tuner hole down a bit to make the break angle less extreme.
Hope you get it worked out OP, it sucks to have a new guitar have issues, especially at this price range. If you're interested in new tuners, I can vouch for the Hipshot stuff, and I hear really good things about the Graphtech Ratio tuners.

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:22 pm

Thanks, I'll remember this when I restring my guitar :mrgreen:

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:19 am

The bottom line is I believe it is the incorrect information (perceived or other: "don't screw the knurled screw too tight") by someone @ Kiesel that threw me off.

Further, in my perception Kiesel didn't a.) Care? b.) know how to deal with this ? c.) or just dropped the ball ? and went to the next call which was probably a sale. After enough attempts without positive results the customer moves on. As this post shows persistence paid off and I actually talked my self thru to a solution. (Thanks to all who replied too)

With all the sales videos, tours of the shop and Jeff's hours of videos, I believe a video from Kiesel regarding the proper use and stringing of guitars with locking tuners would be very helpful albeit elementary to some guitarists? I am not saying I am not at fault for being ignorant, but help on my ignorance having spent 2+ grand at this place would be in order? But not so... Call my guys didn't help and neither did e-mail...unfortunately. (Just being truthful).

This is a learning moment for me, and for Kiesel; for every poor customer experience (and the customers perception is everything here, right or wrong), a reported average of 60 people hear about the poor experience. I would be remiss in not posting my experience as I do think Kiesel has some great products and some room for improvement on customer interaction based on my dealing with them; to say otherwise would be to say every employee there has arrived, and we all know improvement can be made in all areas until we cease to want improvement . My persistence through this could be a Kiesel learning moment too, and helpful to new bees and old guys winding up with new technology and the misconceptions attendant.

I basically set the guitar aside as useless...and most guys would have sold it; I picked it up it 2016, it has been an issue that long, however, I kept it and finally posted here in a last ditch effort figuring they warranty the guitar 5 years... after googling it (and finding the video below) I threw Kiesel's advise out the window which was the key to my success.

I feel I am tightening the knurled screw too tight, but it seems to be working as of the last few days; guitar was very slightly out upon picking it up but not on all strings...?! time will tell but I figured I would pass this on for what its worth, if nothing else it helped me work through it and gain improvement.

Bottomline? The experts are not always the experts!

Amateurs built the Ark but professionals built the Titanic :cowbell:

The video that helped me - SIT

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby ioneater » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:40 pm

Here was Carvin's recommended procedures for setup and routine maintenance for Sperzel equipped fiddles. I seem to recall somewhere as well about the advice to not crank down on the lock wheel. It may have come from the Sperzel days as those had a larger locking wheel with large knurls that made it quite easy to crank them to the point of damaging the string where the lock pin clamps it. The newer Kiesel tuners have a smaller diameter lock wheel and the knurled portion is not as grippy IMO. I have had great experience with the new version so far.

One other thing to check when the strings are off or loosened to the point of no tension is that the jam nut at the top of the tuning peg has not loosened up. The tuning peg will shift around in the headstock and tuning stability will be crap. Had this happen on two of my guitars moving between extremes in climates.
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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:37 pm

Will do, thanks for the additional info :twisted:

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby ExDementia » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:35 am

Tuning stability is a very difficult thing to diagnose over the phone. They already said they would take it back and fix it, so why not do so? I kinda doubt the tuners would be the problem, but if they are, Kiesel would replace them for free, and would figure out if the nut is improperly slotted, which might be causing the issue.

At a certain point, you have to let them help you. They told you that you can send it back so they can fix it, and I don't see what else they can really do at this point.

The warranty is there for a reason. Use it.

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:07 pm

I didn't know returns could be authorized with anyone posting here on the forum and no RMA was IMd me; as far a a willingness to help, I am not sure where that statement comes from? I am a pretty willing kind of guy, but typically I say something that causes a disagreement and "I" pay the price for my perception and dialog...this wouldn't be the first time.

But anyway, the key is really "tightening down" or battening down the hatches. Obviously the key is tight here, not allowing for slipage. I am not sure how many foot pounds tuned strings generate, but with bending and playing I am sure its quite high and requires a good amount of force to lock down the string and to function as advertised.

I think think things are fine as of now, The V220 has been keeping good tune for several days, so I'm content to leave well enough alone and take my chances. I knew the SIT stings were not the problem having tried several sets over the years :laughhard: I didn't see the nut as a problem, it looked good to me.

This post will fill in some void and benefit someone, if nothing else, I won't be calling in on this issue. Further, I shared a video that was the key to helping me which will help someone some day I hope.

Thanks to all for your help, willingness to have this dialog and I hope Kiesel continues to be an awesome company, I really like my V220 and AC375... Ignorance isn't always bliss, but I knew some day I'd sort it out, it just took WAY TOO LONG, but that is usually the case when you have to figure it out yourself, bottom line? don't give up even when the odds are against you...why? you'll ultimately reach your goal.

Gear God's and Carvin Locking Tuners

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby parousia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:12 am

Just for the Customer Service Record/Experience (as of business day 1/11/19) I never heard back from Kiesel on my inquiries about the tuners; I guess follow up isn't normal or SOP on support inquiries. (Disturbing) :shock:

In addition, and for the CSR interaction history , it took weeks of wrangling to get my custom name plate, which wasn't on the guitar when I picked it up.

And once more, a tee shirt a friend ordered was never shipped and he had to go through a big hassle to get a shirt different than his original order.

Experience and Observations: Kiesel Customer Service is very disappointing for all the money spent, its a plain shame...this should have been easy I would think, but if you don't own the problem (your customer calls in about) you never learn how to resolve problems, this tells me a lot about their integrity of management and an example of a culture top down of Kiesel's good ol' boy network who support the client base.

Reps on the phone are short and tell you want they "can't" do, not what they can do and make you fell like an idiot.
This is typical when you are not face to face, its easy to just move on and not follow through with your customer.

I would take all this into consideration whey buying... I say buy used and save money.

You really don't need one of every model, unless you are a collector, in that case the guitar just sits and it doesn't matter if it stays in tune. In these cases the guitars LOOK great on social media and give bragging rights but the acid test of a great guitar is 1.) Does it displace all your other guitars and 2.) do you play the guitar without thinking about it? or is your experience focused on how the guitar is hindering your playing experience? The former is the mark of a GREAT guitar.

So much for the 5 years of warranty, the warranty doesn't matter when there is no follow up...hence public record of ongoing POOR interaction with KIESEL GUITARS.

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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby ElfDude » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:24 pm

I understand that you're frustrated, but you're kind of contradicting yourself.

parousia wrote:
So much for the 5 years of warranty, the warranty doesn't matter when there is no follow up...


Yet earlier you said

parousia wrote:One rep said send it back


They have offered to fix it for you.
That's how they honor the warranty. You return the guitar, they make it right, and then they send it back to you.

I had to do it with one of mine. All was well afterward. It was that simple.
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Re: Kiesel Locking Tuners and tuning instability

Postby ExDementia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:52 am

They offered to fix it. Let them. How else are warranty claims supposed to be handled?


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